Production: Leaving the Ruins of Silan

[iphdrunk]

In case this is still "being thought upon", my (subjective) thoughts:

This change is, plainly stated, apparently and purposedly adding an incoherence from a pure RP / lore perspective for the sake of OOC/personal convenience, without mention that it goes on the "let's dumb the game" direction (e.g. no treks needed).

Historically, and to fit the background, each race had its own starting noob island. A Fyros player grew up in a Fyros environment, favoring fyros culture and so on. If a player learnt crafting, he learnt its race crafting, as it seems natural. Only later on he will get in touch with other cultures.

For OOC reasons -- due to it being unpopulated and to overcome some limitations, it was revamped. This was, imho, a good thing, since it addressed important issues (mainly due to lack of population, brecause overcrowded, steady influx of new players would have mitigated this) but done in such a way that races still had a meaning and *implications* of a players choice. Plus new quests that added playing experience...

oh but "the starter fame will be kept..." oh, thanks Jena!....this seems to me a half-baked solution to try to be moderatey in agreement with the lore.... until players realize that they'd prefer going with ther mates anyway, despite the initial fame values, and they will start seeing the "extra fame grinding" as a disadvantage and annoying and claiming it should be removed..."a player that picks going to another race capitol city is already like growing up there", etc.....etc...

This choice seems to imply that RP will be left as "second priority" if it is a question of raising subscriber numbers or favouring gameplay convenience. Although I applaud multi-race guilds and see them as game-richness, I don't think it should be taken to the extreme. What other decisions in this sense will be taken? Will races be reduced to mere "skins"?

The current problem, as I see it and from a pure OOC gameplay point of view, is a consecuence of friendships being developed in Silan, during playtime, regardless of race, and favoring informal friendship over RP coherence -- which was not possible in pre-silan-- since all races share the same space.

This is indeed not solved by insisting during character creation that players races will be sent to different towns, since a new player may have not met his IG friends yet...the root is that Silan is no longer a "tutorial/introductory" but it has become a defacto "low level region", instead of the natural Lvl 50 mainland zones. The first steps IC for a new character are in Silan. From a RP / lore point of view, the lore should be changed to state that refugees start in a common place.... etc... (complex changes) or, in theory -- hard in practice, Silan should be reduced to a mere tutorial zone (as it should be) and move the questing, and natural IG friendship development to Mainland? but then, what about the trial? ...

For illustration purposes... imagine a WoW tutorial / noob zone where alliance and horde players could grow together, learn the game and develop IG friendship.... then send them to the real WoW....

[grimjim]

Historically, and to fit the background, each race had its own starting noob island. A Fyros player grew up in a Fyros environment, favoring fyros culture and so on. If a player learnt crafting, he learnt its race crafting, as it seems natural. Only later on he will get in touch with other cultures.

Actually, as things are now is closer to the lore. The people lived together cross-culturally in the Prime Roots as refugees and then emerged and were processed through the seperate 'newbie' islands. That wasn't reflected in your game experience though, now it is. (Though the lore has been edited somewhat the refer more to tribal refugees now).

[andypur1]

Well, having read the pros and cons. I generally think that this is a good idea.

Maybe there should be an extra group of missions for homins to take, if they don't want to transfer to their own race's capital city. There needs to be a set of Ambassadors in Silan from each race (as there are in each capital city) and they could distribute invitiations in return for doing a mission (or 5 ).

I also think that the dapper penalty (and other disbenefits) for going to a land with negative fame should be made clear before a homin takes the plunge. Make it clear to homins that they only have to ask for a trek and people will normally be around to offer their help.

[iphdrunk]

Actually, as things are now is closer to the lore. The people lived together cross-culturally in the Prime Roots as refugees and then emerged and were processed through the seperate 'newbie' islands. That wasn't reflected in your game experience though, now it is. (Though the lore has been edited somewhat the refer more to tribal refugees now).

Interesting point... but I'm still unsure about it, and I tend to disagree -- prolly based on mere different interpretations -- I guess it depends on the role that racial conflicts played at that time, the weight of racial conflict vs. civilization rebuilding, including the meaning of "civilization" and the exact details of how homins were moved after the swarming, how exactly they lived together and how they were moved back as refugees. Allowing myself cheap analogies, in feudal Japan warlords could put aside their differences and fight against a common foe e.g. under the Shogun commander... yet I would not expect them to behave as mates, and they lived in a more tribal setting as you state. They would tolerate each other. There are degrees of living cross-culturally.

A fast look at the pages (I would not consider myself a lore-expert, referring to the lore v1.2303b as of today)

"Young refugees in their droves have since been urged by their elders to risk the long and perilous journey to join the newly flourishing civilizations in the newfound lands. (...) The last fifty years have given a fair share of laughter and tears, trial and tribulation to each of the four civilizations"

One could consider that civilization in this context means the race, although I would think that it is a matter of interpretation. It is also possible that they lived completely "mixed", and when "the elders urged" could meqan that "we suggest you to go to X, but you can go anywhere"

"While rebuilding their civilizations, homins will soon have to look deeper into these questions to grasp the true Nature of Atys." Nothing here states that we should rebuild a single united "civilization". It could be a selfish approach were we build "our" (respective) civilization. Again, interpretation issues.


OOC, I do think, based on a few things that are not relevant, that the game was clearly geared towards a complex 4-racial conflict, a much more subtle, complex and interesting setting. For several reasons (in part, lack of population and race unbalance) the saga was moved towards a more bi-polar Kami/Karavan setting, for good or bad. Personally, I liked the idea of more subtle, complex, interesting 4-way racial conflict. This is without precluding the role of a hominist (neutral) approach, but I think this approach should be based on a "willing"/"active" basis, where the homin player needs to go a bit against the natural trend of per civilization. There are still a few rough corners tho (I was a bit shocked by the edict of four). And lore changes so I usually try to forget past lore versions fast. I would like to enhance racial differences rather than reducing them to skins and starting fame values and resistances.

In short, "in theory" I was more pro racial conflict that simplistic, bipolar (us/they) factioned conflict, with even differences within a race (e.g. "Jinovitchism") etc. But lately it seems to be reduced to "us/they" + nuggets. I will leave my rant about the Saga for another post tho

[xfluffee]

This kind of discussion depends heavily on the purpose and goals of Ryzom as a whole. Ryzom does not appear to be a very high-RP environment, so the consideration for this kind of idea should not be viewed in such a light. It needs to be consistent with the lore and fair to the existing players while providing the benefit to the new players.

Leaving RoS and arriving at the same capital city as your friend(s) is the ideal way to continue the friendships that started on the island, both in-game/in-character as well as ooc friendships.

As far as the in-game lore is concerned, presumably these homin friends would find themselves sharing similar beliefs and values, which is why they became friends in the first place. It would make sense that their path in life would take them down the same roads once they leave the island. Even Chaing the Strong, a Zorai, is a shining example of the apparent contradiction to the "usual way of doing things", as he promotes himself not as a mystic, but as a master axe wielder. He discusses the ways that homin have had to come together during the escape, which leaves this kind of situation wide open.

Chaing should be the one to give the players a choice of where they want to go, when they ask him about going to the mainland. Everyone in the group of friends would choose the same place. Chaing then tells them whether the Kami or Kara Ambassadors will take them there, informing them of any potential problems (racial prejudice, etc) their choice might introduce. It could be similar to now, but based on chosen location and not race.

Since, again presumably, your choices shape your future, you should receive fame ratings at least somewhat characteristic of your choice. This reflects choices you'd make with your friends as you're recovering from the flight to the refugee camp, where all races intermingle. Perhaps, to reflect past racial differences, a minor penalty could be applied to homin choosing a path outside the norm for their race. But this should be minor.

My main character is Matis. I had planned on choosing Kara or just remaining neutral, and started in Yrkanis. I was confused about a friend starting in Fairhaven, until I learned that was the place he was supposed to start, especially since we both were sent to the Kara Ambassador. That friend ended up joining a Fyros Kami guild, and I ended up following him. Another Matis friend came to the mainland a little later, decided to strike out on his own, and I haven't actually seen him in the past week or two.

But even as a Matis with -20 Fyros fame, the only "problems" or "prejudice" I experienced in their cities was higher prices in the stores. The game is not (currently) set up for such strong racial conflicts as many posts seem to suggest, and indeed, as the history seems to reflect. That would make it -very- difficult for new players ... the mainland itself is enough of an overwhelming change for a newcomer, including separation from your friends.

If the situation were as I propose, I still would have had a long fame path, whether my friend and I chose Yrkanis or Fairhaven. It will become more important for guilds to recruit on the island, which in itself will help draw in players and create paying customers. The game mechanics, graphics, etc. are wonderful, but what will keep people coming back are the people-relationships that are created.


Once at your new location, the concluding parts of Chaing's mission should allow conversion of your RoS crafts to the crafts of the native race of the location you choose, say, by extending the quest to include performing a task for one or more master crafters. Perhaps it should not be possible to craft on the mainland until completing this mission. Or maybe you need to have your crafting "converted" before you leave the island, which would answer the question about mainland crafting. Chaing would be involved with this.


Trekking will still be an awesome thing. You're visiting places you can't visit on your own. Your guild will want you to go to these places, so they will organize treks to get new members the TPs in the foreign lands. Even if you don't need to trek to get to your friend's homeland so you can reunite (and admit it, that's a pretty steep requirement for friends to reunite without external assistance), there is still the interest and desire to see a new part of the game. From time to time there are treks leaving all cities.

Votes don't really count, but I like the potential of this new change.

-M

[Marjo]

Forwarding Phelan's answer originally made on the German board:

The decision for the change is final and will be deployed with the next patch.
Our reasons for it:

1. The Mainland needs to lose a bit of its fear factor.
2. For some it takes quite a while to get addicted to the drug Ryzom. Some are addicted after playing a few minutes, others need weeks and one "horror trip" (oops, I have lost all my friends) can put them on a permanent withdrawal.
3. The impact on the RP is relatively small. We will inform the players that they need a good reason to choose a different capital. Most of the players should therefore start in their normal city. As a newcomer, life in a foreign city will be much harder.

We are aware that this is a change that some won't appreciate, but we really thought about it a lot. Mainland is in desperate need of more players.
Phelan

[jamela]

Strewth! The "horror trips" are the best part! Ryzom seems kinda insipid once the dangers become less than nerve-jangling
That's beside the point, though - I think it's a good move. The more people coming in the better, and all thinking everything is rosy. "Welcome young refugee *hugs* Have some flowers!" Then we can really show them a "horror trip"

(Wasn't that how Fasi got his white hair? I forget now)

[Phelan]

Then we can really show them a "horror trip"

Please wait till they are addicted beyond hope though

[d29565]

The decision for the change is final and will be deployed with the next patch

What is even the point then, of putting this thing in the feedback section if it is final? People will tell you how much we dislike or like it, but it wont really matter since it's already a final decision.

[ajsuk]

What is even the point then, of putting this thing in the feedback section if it is final? People will tell you how much we dislike or like it, but it wont really matter since it's already a final decision.

They prolly didn't think peoples concerns were great enough to merit it being changed, canceled...

They're thinking happy noobs = more people/money, which makes sense.
People don't always know what they want, to start with...