Ryzom

Just want to clarify that im not against PvP , being killed or tactics such as the use of mob pulls in the FvF zone its underhanded/decietfull kills that annoy me and I term as Ganking (ie being told you wont be killed whilst you hold a pick and a couple of minuits later the same person killing you whilst you dig or a couple of fighter stoling up to a dig area under truce becoming bored and deciding to kill off the outnumbered diggers of the opersition)

weedakos wrote:Bottom line is in a war there is no ganking and no griefing by definition..all goes if ur not on the same side.

I'll never agree on that. Just because in a war you are required to gank doesn't mean it's not ganking. Griefing goes to intention, it's griefing if you are out to ruin someone's elses fun, which is never the IC purpose of a war. War does not excuse griefing. As for ganking, that doesn't need to be excused, as it's valid tactics in any PvP situation, even if it's morally questionable.

weedakos wrote:1) In any war, be it defensive or expansive, its a no holds barred situation..All war dirty tricks are named by history books as strategic masterplans for milemnia now..."all is fair in love and war" and this is war.

Sure, in any war, taking out enemy supply lines and resource gathering is good tactics, but that doesn't mean it's not also commonly considered 'dirty' or 'immoral' tactics. Just because taking out foragers is good tactics doesn't mean it's not also ganking. The two are not mutually exclusive.

marct wrote:Do not confuse the "player playing the game" with the "character they play in-game". The term "Ganker" applies across this divide and insults people by accusing them of being a type of person they are not for the way they play their character in a game., and that is why it is offensive.

I think the problem here is just disagreement over what exactly "ganking" means. I see it as any situation in which a player purposefully kills another player whom he knows has very little to no chance to survive his attack. Whether this is done for IC or OOC reasons makes no difference to this definition. But if your definition of "ganker" is someone who kills other players just to ruin their fun, and the term is thus insulting to you, then give me an alternative term that means "person who kills defenseless targets (regardless of reason)" and I'll consider using that instead.

marct wrote:Do not confuse the "player playing the game" with the "character they play in-game". The term "Ganker" applies across this divide and insults people by accusing them of being a type of person they are not for the way they play their character in a game., and that is why it is offensive.

sidusar wrote: But if your definition of "ganker" is someone who kills other players just to ruin their fun, and the term is thus insulting to you, then give me an alternative term that means "person who kills defenseless targets (regardless of reason)" and I'll consider using that instead.

I think together we have come to the conclusion of this debate. This is the exact root of the problem with the term "ganker" being applied to everyone. To someone who would be overmatched otherwise, like myself, I may use "opportunist." To a 250 Elementalist doing it, I would probably say "jerk!"

To Spiff, who is a guild mate, I think he and others would greatly prefer JERK to ganker. As it truly was a jerky move to kill a defenseless digger. But in no way is he repeatedly trying to just ruin the others fun by camping, etc.

other useful terms may be: Karavan scum, Kami scum, etc.

Noin.

marct wrote:I think together we have come to the conclusion of this debate. This is the exact root of the problem with the term "ganker" being applied to everyone. To someone who would be overmatched otherwise, like myself, I may use "opportunist." To a 250 Elementalist doing it, I would probably say "jerk!"

To Spiff, who is a guild mate, I think he and others would greatly prefer JERK to ganker. As it truly was a jerky move to kill a defenseless digger. But in no way is he repeatedly trying to just ruin the others fun by camping, etc.

other useful terms may be: Karavan scum, Kami scum, etc.

Noin.

Thanks for the clarification and renewal here, Noin. Yes, he's right, it's not that I mind certain people not liking me. All I ask is that you keep it in character. If you want to call me a "scum sucking Karavan worshipping goober", I'm okay with that. Just don't use a term that really doesn't apply. Noin, like many, knows full well what a mektoub's tail I can be at times, but the King of Nexus understands completely that what I do is done entirely in character and for what I believe is a good cause.

mtsmith wrote:Thanks for the clarification and renewal here, Noin. Yes, he's right, it's not that I mind certain people not liking me. All I ask is that you keep it in character. If you want to call me a "scum sucking Karavan worshipping goober", I'm okay with that. Just don't use a term that really doesn't apply. Noin, like many, knows full well what a mektoub's tail I can be at times, but the King of Nexus understands completely that what I do is done entirely in character and for what I believe is a good cause.

Ah Spiff, then it is OOC vs. IC.
IC you are doing what you are told by the karavan.
But OOC you _are_ ganking diggers as they don't stand a chance. Would it help if they would shout: 'OOC: Spiff, you ganker!' ?

The real problem, out of character of course, is that from the point of the diggers, you 'destroy' their part of fun in the episode, especially if it is done with the reason to stop them from digging, over and over again.
Getting 28 materials in 15 minutes after getting killed 5 times, kind of ruins the fun.
OOC fun is more important the being IC! If that is not respected, people start calling names. Getting or not getting DP is not even important in it.

Just turn it all around. How would you feel if a digger _forced_ you to dig for 30 minutes before you could go FvF? And even worse, while attacking a kami, a digger sneaked up, and _forced_ you again to dig for another 30 minutes before you could go FvF. How many times does that have to happen before you start calling names?

The player behind his computer chooses how he plays the game. If he chooses to annoy other players (even if the game asks that from him), then he can expect other players to call him things that he does not wants.

hmm i'm confused. i dig and get killed (ganked?) i equip my amps and fight. as a lv180 ele if i attack a higher level player (most of them) i'm not ganking but someone under my level i am?

truth be told i have trouble playing the way i want in the FvF zone because i am too weak. From rushin's perspective there is no place for 'peace' there, if i get to the centre and see kara and kami digging together i go dig somewhere else. I'd like to shout 'leave or die' at the karavan but it wouldn't be them that would do the dying lol

from what i can gather ganking is basically killing. which i am fine with. It's very rare there is an evenly matched fight so seems pointless to try and classify every encounter as ganking or not.

Look at the fight points. The kami are the real dedicated gankers our karavan guys are just ganker wannabes

sx4rlet wrote:Ah Spiff, then it is OOC vs. IC.
IC you are doing what you are told by the karavan.
But OOC you _are_ ganking diggers as they don't stand a chance. Would it help if they would shout: 'OOC: Spiff, you ganker!' ?

The real problem, out of character of course, is that from the point of the diggers, you 'destroy' their part of fun in the episode, especially if it is done with the reason to stop them from digging, over and over again.
Getting 28 materials in 15 minutes after getting killed 5 times, kind of ruins the fun.
OOC fun is more important the being IC! If that is not respected, people start calling names. Getting or not getting DP is not even important in it.

Just turn it all around. How would you feel if a digger _forced_ you to dig for 30 minutes before you could go FvF? And even worse, while attacking a kami, a digger sneaked up, and _forced_ you again to dig for another 30 minutes before you could go FvF. How many times does that have to happen before you start calling names?

The player behind his computer chooses how he plays the game. If he chooses to annoy other players (even if the game asks that from him), then he can expect other players to call him things that he does not wants.

Now where's the logic in that? I've never killed anybody out of character, nor do I worship any woman but my wonderful wife. To tell you the truth, that is the whole point. With the exception of guild chat, most any time I speak in game it is entirely in character.

To address your other "point", nobody is being forced to do anything. There is a massive world out there to be explored, hunted, and visited. Besides, a crafter (which most diggers are) can work all day long in relative safety at the temple construction sites.

sx4rlet wrote:The real problem, out of character of course, is that from the point of the diggers, you 'destroy' their part of fun in the episode, especially if it is done with the reason to stop them from digging, over and over again.
Getting 28 materials in 15 minutes after getting killed 5 times, kind of ruins the fun.

I really do understand where your coming from and I've stated before that I dont condone Spiff's actions or ganking in general. With that said; I really want to point out it was Nevrax that put a big Bullseye on harvesters. Tho we should be upset at getting ganked lets take a moment and think about it.

Hmmm lets see the game mechanics require players to wear "focus gear" to dig effectively. a lvl 250 player having to wear 10 pcs of jewlry of focus and 5 pcs of light armour focus gives away -

10 * 125 = 1250 for the jewlry
5 * 125 = 625 for the armour

So thats 1875 Hit points. Pretty big difference.

Also a digger in a digging action trying to runaway will get "tripped" there is no way to avoid this that I know of. This pretty much ensures they player cant run away out of range before the attacker gets off 1 or 2 shots most likely resulting in death.

Also lets examine lvl 250 Harvester with no real fighting skills. Base HP will be 1800 with horrible resists pretty much ensure getting hit every time and giving the attacker maximum honor points most liekly with 1 nuke.

Your anger and disdain should be at whoever developed Episode 2. They've created one of the biggest "ganker" zones I've ever heard of or seen. Somebody really hates harvesters ... and no I"m not talking about the gankers I'm talking about the developers.

Edit: Lost my train of thought. Adding addtional information.

Morever, lets not forget. Even with all these negative game mechanics it wasn't bad enough for the harvesters. The premise of the episode is to also to prevent the building. It wasn't enough they get Honor Points for soft targets (which pretty much would ensure ganking of harvesters just for this reason alone). The developers are actively and agressively promoting that diggers should be targets. That combined with the emergence and allowance of agro dragging leads me to wonder if anybody at Nevrax knows anything about playing t heir own game.

Since you mentioned, I would like to add that, to me, the premise of the event is the actual building of the temple, rather than the prevention of it. It also appears to me that harvesters are the most important and best treated characters in Ep 2, for it is only through their work that the event can be completed, and they are given a lot more honor points than fighters. A lvl 250 harvesters can stack up more honor points in a few hours of digging high lvl mats than days or even a whole week of fighting for a lvl 250 fighter.

(I spent every minute of my time in the pvp area in focus jewels and LA.)