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Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:42 pm
by sehracii
gecker wrote: group would beat a lvl 50 group? What about the 100 NPCs the lvl 50 group spawned at their outpost because they're a bunch of high level forager/crafters and have lots of dapper to spend on defenses. Hmm, might make it a lot tougher to take over that outpost.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that aspect. My foraging is my highest level so it's where I personally could make the most difference.

Still though, there's a lot to consider. What's to stop five high level nukers from attacking my guild's outpost 10 times? Say they take out 10 NPC's each time. At worst they max their DP, but if they keep at it they finally break in and take it over. We lose the outpost AND millions of dapper...
gecker wrote: At this point its really too early to pass judgement on outposts. Maybe once Nevrax gives us some more details and ATS is open, we will have a better idea of all the options available with outposts.
But that's what it comes down to, hehe. :rolleyes: We're all just guessing :confused:


Edit: Oops, off topic. I think there was an outpost thread (or three) somewhere.......

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:53 pm
by vinnyq
I don't know about you guys, but I am having a heck of a good time enjoying all these (healthy) "conflicts" today on the forum ...

*wink wink*

SCORES!!!!

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:51 pm
by zhidao
ah yes vinnyq. That`s a nice thread to read here, and also nice to see that Homins here on Aristotle have the same discussions and opinions about PvP as we on Leanon.
Interestingly the same arguments are apearring and are repeated again and again (perhaps with other words and examples though) (I feel like to read in our recent PvP thread thanks to xenofurs comment here :) ).

Well, all the problems with PvP can finally reduced to some few statements. (Even though they appear quite long caused by explaining things).

First, PvP is necessary as it brings the kind of competition a lot of Homins are looking for.
The competition of challenging an other brain and its strategics preferably in fight.
Those people are satisfied with any form of PvP because they just wish that competition. This statement includes most of those who are speaking in favour of PvP.

On the contrary there are people who are not playing here as they wish the competition, perhaps even want to escape from the rl competition they have to face each day and want to work with other Homins together for a greater meaning.The true RP - working together to defeat an Enemy.
Those people do not hate PvP itself because they of course grand it to Homins loving it.
But they need good reasons for killing a fellow homin. An explanation if you want. SoR does not offer any reason for killing a Homin yet, so this group won`t accept the current PvP system neither any following System that does not offer the good reason for war between Homins.
Those Homins will also judge PKler and call them bandits of course, as they are only that (because the lack of a reason for PvP).

The discussions and Problems with PvP will rise from any interaction between those 2 groups.
And 1 further thing needs to be considered. In PvP conflict where both groups meet each other, there is on side (the PvP friends) who have control about what shall happen, because there action starts the conflict. No one who don`t like senseless PvP has the opportunity to avoid it, but the PvP friend is capable to not interfere those Homins with PvP.

Well, the challenge for Nevrax and any other publisher of games is clearly to bring those two groups together (or concentrate on one of them), especially if you consider that a good amount of Homins belong to the second group or to the first one but would appreciated a good reason as well. Especially the Outposts offer great potential to reach the heaven of symbiosis of those two groups which not even WOW was able to create at the end.

I dare to guarantee that with a good system that offers logical and story-based reasons for PvP (here in combination with Outposts) both groups will have lots of fun with that feature.
On the contrary, if there will be a lack of reason in that upcoming feature, you will have 1 group satisfied and one group disappointed and frustrated, complaining about the game and finally leaving.

But, unfortunately no clue of information points even in the direction that Nevrax plans to do in this direction.
It appears unbelieveable that someone like David who has quite good dreams up to know have overseen that interrelation explained here - but it appears to be so up to know.

Well, I pray for a good outcome of the PvP question and that Nevrax finally reaches the unbelieveable: A feature with PvP bearable by both sides of the coin. As this is the only thing we can do at the moment. Unfortunately but fact.

That`s for now.

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:54 pm
by grimjim
"First, PvP is necessary as it brings the kind of competition a lot of Homins are looking for.
The competition of challenging an other brain and its strategics preferably in fight.
Those people are satisfied with any form of PvP because they just wish that competition. This statement includes most of those who are speaking in favour of PvP."

Couldn't this desire for conflict against another person also be sated by GM controlled, rather than just spawned, mobs and enemies?

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:03 pm
by vinnyq
Hullo zhidao! You guys called PvP the "devil" too? OMG!!!!

hehe j/k, ty for your views from the other server.
grimjim wrote:Couldn't this desire for conflict against another person also be sated by GM controlled, rather than just spawned, mobs and enemies?
Sure, but the nature of the conflict is different. One is player vs player, and the other is player vs a god-like entity. There're fun to be had in both.

I really think the difference between me and you, grim, boils down to this:

You: avoid the bad all together by not allowing for it to happen.
Me: bring on the bad with the good, because the good is oh so good when it is good.

Agree?

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:07 pm
by grimjim
vinnyq wrote:Hullo zhidao! You guys called PvP the "devil" too? OMG!!!!

hehe j/k, ty for your views from the other server.



Sure, but the nature of the conflict is different. One is player vs player, and the other is player vs a god-like entity. There're fun to be had in both.

I really think the difference between me and you, grim, boils down to this:

You: avoid the bad all together by not allowing for it to happen.
Me: bring on the bad with the good, because the good is oh so good when it is good.

Agree?
Yep, I'd say that's the difference.

But if even a little cianide turns up in my pint of milk, I'm not going to drink it ;)

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:09 pm
by vinnyq
grimjim wrote:Yep, I'd say that's the difference.

But if even a little cianide turns up in my pint of milk, I'm not going to drink it ;)
It could be cianide, but it could also be chocolate!

lol nm bad come-back metaphore.

How about, it might give you a stomach ache, but it tastes so friggin good!

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:12 pm
by larwood
vinnyq wrote:It could be cianide, but it could also be chocolate!

lol nm bad come-back metaphore.

How about, it might give you a stomach ache, but it tastes so friggin good!


lol.. what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger right? :)

(i drink cianide with my Wheaties™)

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:21 pm
by xenofur
actually, as i said in another thread, i'm observing a very small group fighting pvp with bared fangs and claws even when there is no chance of it not being implemented and i still stand by something i said on the german forums: the citizens of arispotle are way better suited for accepting pvp than those of leanon, simply through the fact that even the anti-pvp manage to use valid arguments instead of "omg, you traitor, the whole server shall despise you and turn away on seeing your face"
(except for that 1337 kiddy insult, grimjim, that was a really low insult and something i would have never expected from you <_<)

on-topic: me and my clan were always a tight-knit group of individuals who who grew up in a full-pvp strategy game and were always stacked against the odds, even going so far as to defeat the biggest player-fleet in the game with words. it was a very nice way of playing that allowed us to see ourselves as heroes without actually ruining someone's day. it is this kind of gameplay that i crave in a pvp environment and as such i can only wish to have an uberguild of gankers(the seeds for several are already set on leanon *g*) in order to give us a goal. =)

Re: PvP, the devil

Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 9:23 pm
by grimjim
"(except for that 1337 kiddy insult, grimjim, that was a really low insult and something i would have never expected from you <_<)"

It's the truth as I observe it and representative of every brush with PvP I've had in any MMO.

Including this one.

Though Neun rescued it by turning on some roleplay charm even though he wasn't directly involved.

In my experience, those types of inadequetes are the types it appeals the most to.

YMMV