Suggestions for ranged fighting

[zumwalt]

Ok, so, I read through this thread, and it truely accored to me, people don't get ranged fighting in general.

Reality, a ranged fighter SHOULD be able to take down a mob a 1/4 mile away without the mob ever getting to him.

Take Rifles for instance, a Rifle even without a scope should be able to fire accurately for up to atleast 1 mile.

So you take that same rifle, add a scope, now you can fire accurately up to 2 miles if your gooood.

Now lets take some more information about ranged fighting into consideration, I can throw a baseball up to 90 miles an hour, for an accurate distance which I will leave undisclosed, however, to make a point here, in the game, you can't fire more than 40M accurately, I can personally throw a ball farther.

A guy with a sword, charging at me that I notice, why can't I pull out a ranged weapon, any ranged weapon, and nail him, tearing him up before he gets to me.

Lets talk about automatics here, the game doesn't have them 'yet' but why not?

Surely, a ranged weapon should have a MINIMUM distance of 50m, and a max of 500m in ryzom, damage should be based on rate of speed of the ammo based on ammo type, hit limiters should be adjusted against barrel length.

A pistol can't fire accurately to long distances that a rifle can.

Does any of this make sense?

[thexdane]

I think giving basic information about ranged to Tetra is not going to add much to any discussion. Agree or disagree with Tetra, he/she is clearly extremely knowledgeable about ranged.

Doctor Z.

no he/she's not extremely knowledgable and yes giving an example to anyone is a good thing

i was only doing it to prove a point, which he/completely missed cause i used "inaccurate" numbers as an example, heaven forbid that especially since the almight tetra has to flap is gums so their voice can be heard and prove how great they are. i'll agree they're great at something but it's not at ranged combat

thing is i've learned more about ranged by actually raising my melee, ranged AND magic. i fully understand the mechanics of it, thing is that i don't see 95% of the ppl doing is harvesting their own mats for the ammo, store bought ammo is crap and so are the guns

thing is with range is it's not like either melee or ele, range is different, so why compare it to those skills? you can't and anyone that does is an idiot

Take Rifles for instance, a Rifle even without a scope should be able to fire accurately for up to atleast 1 mile.

yes for a rifle, however our guns are roughly equive to a blunderbuss or musket and well 1 mile is WAY out of range for one of those weapons, so why not compare it to them instead of a high powered rifle and not the standard issue gun you can pick up at your local walmart. last time i checked a musket and blunderbuss could not acurately hit a target even 100 feet away

thing is with range most ppl don't understand it nor how it works, it's ranged not melee and not elemental. range compliements a damage dealer/tank, they don't replace it, probly the reason it has it's own tree seperate from melee

like if you really want to bring stuff from the real world, why not compare it to actual real life combat, where you had melee and range fighters. in armies of yesteryear they had seperate units of range and melee, range would use musket and blunderbuss and the infantry would use swords after the enemies got too close. the role of ranged was NOT to take out the enemy, on the other hand it was charged with reducing their numbers and trying to break their rank and file and therefore damaging their moral

[zumwalt]

even so, were getting ranged technology from a race that can do interplanetary travel...

i can see a basic weapon being a musket or blunderbuss, a modi being more like our modern rifles, then excelent being more like a space aged laser weapon, atleast there is a difference

right now, no matter the level of the quality of the weapon, distance is not greatly effected

[tetra]

no he/she's not extremely knowledgable and yes giving an example to anyone is a good thing

i was only doing it to prove a point, which he/completely missed cause i used "inaccurate" numbers as an example, heaven forbid that especially since the almight tetra has to flap is gums so their voice can be heard and prove how great they are. i'll agree they're great at something but it's not at ranged combat

You were posting an example about a skill that has had everything from "OMG LAUNCHERS ARE F'EN UBER STFU!" to "I don't see anything wrong with the skill"... you used numbers in your example... the numbers you used were far from accurate. In your post, you tried to claim that ranged and melee did about the same damage using damage per attack and attacks per second. Well when you use numbers that are wrong and not even close to accurate... it does need to be pointed out. Now you can try to claim that I'm some clueless idiot all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you posted X and I gave you a nice civil post pointing out that your numbers were wildly inaccurate and the actual numbers are closer to X. The numbers you posted were not even close, all of a month or two ago some schmuck was blathering about how QL60 launchers did 1200 damage a shot in pvp on the ATS forum... was proven wrong... ignored the proof... and then came to the general forum to spew the same utter nonsense where they tried to defend it

thing is i've learned more about ranged by actually raising my melee, ranged AND magic. i fully understand the mechanics of it, thing is that i don't see 95% of the ppl doing is harvesting their own mats for the ammo, store bought ammo is crap and so are the guns

Oh yea... I'm 130+ ranged by buying mats off vendors... everyone has flat out said that it is not possible to do ranged fight unless you craft your own ammo. nobody claims that you can do ranged and buy ammo or mats for ammo and have a hope of leveling it. You trying to discredit people by claiming that nobody harvests/crafts their own ammo, does not suddenly make it true.

thing is with range is it's not like either melee or ele, range is different, so why compare it to those skills? you can't and anyone that does is an idiot

Ranged is compared to melee and magic, because harvesting and crafting don't kill things. Ranged is compared to melee and magic in this game, because comparing it to dragons in horizons, bows in AC/EQ/etc would be silly. Don't ask stupid questions when the answer is blatantly obvious... ranged kills stuff, melee kills stuff, elemental magic kills stuff... since ranged fighters have to kill the same mobs as melee and magic, you have to compare their ability to accomplish anything to the ability of a mage/melee to accomplish something. This comparison is done by looking at damage output over X time, the ability to withstand damage, the value of any range beyond point blank, the cost needed to fuel the skill (ammo, weapons, amps), and finally the amount of stamina/hp/sap needed to do this damage. Since most of these values are greatly overshadowed by the low damage, high cost, and incredibly high hp/stam burn... they are pointless.

yes for a rifle, however our guns are roughly equive to a blunderbuss or musket and well 1 mile is WAY out of range for one of those weapons, so why not compare it to them instead of a high powered rifle and not the standard issue gun you can pick up at your local walmart. last time i checked a musket and blunderbuss could not acurately hit a target even 100 feet away

Have you looked at any of the ranged weapons? They most certainly have little in common with a blunderbuss or musket. Just like you claiming that nobody makes their own ammo, it doesn't suddenly make it true because you want to claim it on the forums.

thing is with range most ppl don't understand it nor how it works, it's ranged not melee and not elemental. range compliements a damage dealer/tank, they don't replace it, probly the reason it has it's own tree seperate from melee

Except they don't compliment either of them at all... they do **** damage, and have stamina/hp burn so high that they can't hope to tank anything... lets not forget the fact that none of the melee only skills work with ranged weapons and they are hampered by low ammo capacity. They don't actually provide anything useful to a group... you claiming that ranged fighters "compliment melee and magic" doesn't suddenly make it true in the slightest.

like if you really want to bring stuff from the real world, why not compare it to actual real life combat, where you had melee and range fighters. in armies of yesteryear they had seperate units of range and melee, range would use musket and blunderbuss and the infantry would use swords after the enemies got too close. the role of ranged was NOT to take out the enemy, on the other hand it was charged with reducing their numbers and trying to break their rank and file and therefore damaging their moral

Except none of the ranged weapons in game have anything in common with either of these two weapons, you can claim it till you are blue in the face... but it's still not true.

[hunter17]

As you guys mention about range being a different skill...it is, and i agree that you cannot directly correlate it to magic, but you SHOULD be able to correlate directly to melee, in terms of magic, i'm sure a nuker takes as much damage at his level as a healer could at the same level, i have not done any math for this so feel free to criticize, but they are about equal, so if ranged is its own skill and it's SUPPOSED to be functioning differently, then what is it good for? if it obviously is not supposed to do independent damage (opposed to a melee able to fight his equal battles) then what is it good for? making the healers work extra harder? waste an extra space in group? give an incentive to raise range crafting? there is clearly no point to raising this skill
as for different armors as i mentioned before... light armor- less stamina, WAY more damage taken especially for a fight class, med armor-barely ok protection, and a huge stamina consumption, heavy armor- i dont even want to go there
as for me using hp credits...i use the max of both to maximize my effectiveness in battle, even though there is not much, i do hit 209's with my q100 ammo, but how many times am i missing/wasting ammo/wasting stam and hp/becoming useless? ranged is my highest attack skill, about 45 more than melee and about 4x as much as offensive, range is at 115, buying ammo mats from the vendor used to be a habit to craft my ammo, now i have to rely on my guildies to provide me with mats because it's difficult to keep harvesting, only at 54, ranged, and range crafting at about the same level, which they arent, range crafting is level 92 about and it's 30 levels behind what i need...it's just not sufficient

[lyrah68]

BINGO...if we got the gun tech from a race that could travel through space...why is it currently CRAPPIER than a Winchester from the wild west. I beg to differ that THAT rifle was even REMOTELY inaccurate, just ask anyone that was shot by one...Oh yeah...ya can't...they died. Point made. (and in Winchesters time...we couldn't even drive a CAR...they didn't exist for at least two or three more DECADES).

even so, were getting ranged technology from a race that can do interplanetary travel...

i can see a basic weapon being a musket or blunderbuss, a modi being more like our modern rifles, then excelent being more like a space aged laser weapon, atleast there is a difference

right now, no matter the level of the quality of the weapon, distance is not greatly effected

[lyrah68]

And the dual wield dagger toss...if your life were depending upon a dagger...would you risk dropping it on a rock and breaking the blade?

I have done some metalergical historic research lately helping my daughter do a school project. Do you realize in ANCIENT history that Anglo Saxon fighters in the early bronze to early iron age had to stop IN BATTLE to unbend their blades?

And that it was COMMON to shatter a blade in sword to sword unmounted combat...early steele cased iron swords were often so brittle, but sharp enough to be horridly fearsome on the field.

Watch Braveheart, that was MILD in comparision to what those times TRULY were. Ancient battlefields often have a higher iron content in the soil...due to rusted weapons and human BLOOD, which often would cover a battlefield of hundreds or thousands of acres...to ANKLE deep!

I think the ONLY reason that Atysian weapons would work is the SHARING of all technologies by all races during the kitin wars. The Fyros found fire tempering, the Matis found something else, The Trykers something else, and the Zorai brought us the refined state of magic.

Otherwise the wooden swords would NOT work, and shell isn't much better (ever step on a sea shell before? I broke them before I cut my foot).

don't expect too much, the devs prolly have no real clue about weapons, just watch some of the fighting animations or the idle animations. ex.: what real warrior would put a sword down on it's tip?

[uncus]

BINGO...if we got the gun tech from a race that could travel through space...why is it currently CRAPPIER than a Winchester from the wild west. I beg to differ that THAT rifle was even REMOTELY inaccurate, just ask anyone that was shot by one...Oh yeah...ya can't...they died. Point made. (and in Winchesters time...we couldn't even drive a CAR...they didn't exist for at least two or three more DECADES).

Because if you were the space faring race [or Custer, look what happened there...] would you want the indiginous peoples to have a snowballs chance in hell of even challenging, much less of defeating, you? Hell no! Give 'em a hand cannon, a blunderbuss, maybe - after they've shown their reliability - a flintlock...
And, I gotta call bull**** on the shot at 1 mile [or km] with no scope! Yes, a Canadian sniper [highly trained - level 250 no doubt, with a scope and a good spotter to call windage for him] made a kill from over a mile and a half [just about 2k] ONCE. He didn't make that shot every day, every shot.
I agree that the range of rifles in game need to be enhanced, but if they are more the equivalent of a blunderbuss, then 125 ft would be a good very long [if not extreme] range.

[thexdane]

You were posting an example about a skill that has had everything from "OMG LAUNCHERS ARE F'EN UBER STFU!" to "I don't see anything wrong with the skill"... you used numbers in your example... the numbers you used were far from accurate. In your post, you tried to claim that ranged and melee did about the same damage using damage per attack and attacks per second. Well when you use numbers that are wrong and not even close to accurate... it does need to be pointed out. Now you can try to claim that I'm some clueless idiot all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you posted X and I gave you a nice civil post pointing out that your numbers were wildly inaccurate and the actual numbers are closer to X. The numbers you posted were not even close, all of a month or two ago some schmuck was blathering about how QL60 launchers did 1200 damage a shot in pvp on the ATS forum... was proven wrong... ignored the proof... and then came to the general forum to spew the same utter nonsense where they tried to defend it

i guess you missed the whole part where i said I MADE BOTH NUMBERS UP, so why not make a comment on how my melee numbers are off?

but yeah i forgot your the "expert"

learn to READ english

here's the definition of example

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=example

Oh yea... I'm 130+ ranged by buying mats off vendors... everyone has flat out said that it is not possible to do ranged fight unless you craft your own ammo. nobody claims that you can do ranged and buy ammo or mats for ammo and have a hope of leveling it. You trying to discredit people by claiming that nobody harvests/crafts their own ammo, does not suddenly make it true.

good for you, maybe in a few lvls we can talk

Ranged is compared to melee and magic, because harvesting and crafting don't kill things. Ranged is compared to melee and magic in this game, because comparing it to dragons in horizons, bows in AC/EQ/etc would be silly. Don't ask stupid questions when the answer is blatantly obvious... ranged kills stuff, melee kills stuff, elemental magic kills stuff... since ranged fighters have to kill the same mobs as melee and magic, you have to compare their ability to accomplish anything to the ability of a mage/melee to accomplish something. This comparison is done by looking at damage output over X time, the ability to withstand damage, the value of any range beyond point blank, the cost needed to fuel the skill (ammo, weapons, amps), and finally the amount of stamina/hp/sap needed to do this damage. Since most of these values are greatly overshadowed by the low damage, high cost, and incredibly high hp/stam burn... they are pointless.

and elemental and melee don't take a lot of stam as well? i do remember my the healer complaining about how much stam we used to use at lower lvls


oh and for high stam usage, edit the stanza

Have you looked at any of the ranged weapons? They most certainly have little in common with a blunderbuss or musket. Just like you claiming that nobody makes their own ammo, it doesn't suddenly make it true because you want to claim it on the forums.

ok since you decided to quote me i'd like you to read the definition of equivalent

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=equivalent

cause i do believe i said it was EQUIVALENT and NOT EQUAL

but yeah NO gun in game compares at all to any of our real life counter parts, we make our guns out of sticks and berries and tree sap

Except they don't compliment either of them at all... they do **** damage, and have stamina/hp burn so high that they can't hope to tank anything... lets not forget the fact that none of the melee only skills work with ranged weapons and they are hampered by low ammo capacity. They don't actually provide anything useful to a group... you claiming that ranged fighters "compliment melee and magic" doesn't suddenly make it true in the slightest.


Except none of the ranged weapons in game have anything in common with either of these two weapons, you can claim it till you are blue in the face... but it's still not true.

since you need to learn the definition of complement i figured i'd add it here

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=complement

a range person DOES complement a group and every time i've been in a group or any of our ranged fighters they've held their own and down similar (i would use equivalent but you've proven it's too big of a word for you) damage compared with the melee

as i've said before if you want to say something about how much stam it's using and such, edit your stanzas

when i use melee i don't use all the stuff i can, i scale back and edit it depending on the mobs we're fighting


next time before you reply, i'll suggest going to http://dictionary.reference.com and looking up the definitions of words you're unsure of as i've found you don't have the basic grasp of simple words, i suggest visiting there often

and now i'll stop before Cerest has a conniption (and just for you tetra cause it is a big word http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=conniption )

[bman42]

ok to quell all of your arguments here are the REAL numbers:
at lvl 150 range with a q160 supreme rifle
298 damage/hit

compared to lvl 201 melee with q200 supreme pike
904 damage

now with my attack rate increase i hit just under 3 times faster than the melee
melee must stand 1.5 meters from target, while i stand 37m from target
take the numbers and do your own math

now for the rest of your rediculous statements, NO METALS, NO MINERALS.
no metals = no metalurgy
read your atys history books, if you wish to quote history
and consider the 'reality' of atys, if you want to debate reality