Ryzom

thanakar wrote:Raynes, how many different interpretations are there of The Bible? How many different religions have arisen over that one book. Lore is like that, what you get from it won't be the same as the person next to you. Plain and simple.

You said it in your own post, when you have a majorly different interpretation of a doctrine you become your own seperate sect. Something we need to work out is if "Karavan follower" is like being a "Christian" (i.e. a broad term), or if it's more like being a "Catholic" (i.e. a follower of a specific doctrine with little room for personal interpretation).

I get the impression that the Karavan only allow discrepancies (like the Guild of Elias situation) because if they were to go down the righteous path they would probably alienate the inherently rebelious Tryker and perhaps the Matis, too. They can't afford to do that. One of the main reasons I follow the Kami is for that ability to interpret, the Karavan have a Law that their followers must live by. I don't see the ability to interpret or pick and choose the best parts. You want interpretation? Be a Kami follower. Otherwise... toe the line!

thanakar wrote:Raynes, how many different interpretations are there of The Bible? How many different religions have arisen over that one book. Lore is like that, what you get from it won't be the same as the person next to you. Plain and simple.

Ok, since no one is listening to the game newb, let me tell you all a little story.

Once upon a time in a galaxy far far away, there was a large and bustling roleplay scene that had been established over a whole year. Then one day, someone decided that people trying to roleplay "force" powers were bad, and against what "everyone" knows as standard Star Wars cannon, as there aren't supposed to be anyone with force powers but Luke the Emperor and Vader. So suddenly every Tom Dick and Skywalker who had been roleplaying thier characters happily with limited force awareness and abilities got branded as against cannon, and therefor "r/p powergamer cheaters". This naturally did not go over well with said characters who had for the large majority been acting responsibly and not stepping over bounds or on toes.

A great battle ensued.. people using any means of force abilities who had not gotten an actual jedi got flamed, and black listed. People began flinging insults at oppositional roleplayers as using "force faerie" powers to get out of situations, a rift expanded, trust was lost, and the constant flame wars on the boards destroyed many a character, chased large handfuls away from the game, and effectively put a total and complete halt to any positive roleplay on that server for months. To this day the remaining community has set constricting rules upon the use of "force powers" and actual jedi have even been forbidden from roleplay events because of the war that had been caused, OOC. The atmosphere is oppressive, and lacks freedom.

Trying to nail down a specific all encompassing cannon to roleplay by for any universe is like asking the entire world to live by the bible.

There will never be total agreement, and there will be wars as people get intensely into thier own concept of what it's supposed to be.

The constructive means for building a roleplay community is to work on OOC matters of respect, and OOC terms of what people can or cannot do, as well as how to handle ooc mistakes and arguments so that ALL sides and opinions are dealt with in a positive, and cooperative manner.

When dealing with a fictional universe, anything is possible. Some things may seem given, but creativity does not come with boundaries.
Any roleplay conventions need to encompass that, or else the community dooms itself down the line.

eohlwyn wrote:The constructive means for building a roleplay community is to work on OOC matters of respect, and OOC terms of what people can or cannot do, as well as how to handle ooc mistakes and arguments so that ALL sides and opinions are dealt with in a positive, and cooperative manner.

When dealing with a fictional universe, anything is possible. Some things may seem given, but creativity does not come with boundaries.
Any roleplay conventions need to encompass that, or else the community dooms itself down the line.

You've hit upon a key point in my mind. I totally respect that some characters are extremists and while my character disagrees with their characters, I personally believe that both types of characters have a place in this world. I'm hoping that out of this conference will come a framework that allows both types of characters to exist (even if they may be at odds).

I don't disagree that the worship of Jena is very law oriented (primarily because I don't pretend to have read as much of it as others have), but that is not inconsistent with the way real people worship their gods. Every religion has an ideal; within that, it has some people that try to live up to that ideal fanatically and others that simply try to live loosely within the general ideal. I believe that we need to encourage role players to embody all different kinds of characters, not just the most extreme examples.

On a related note, one of the things we need to be careful of is speaking in-character vs. out-of-character. It would easy to be offended if I thought that Raynes was telling me that I couldn't play a certain way. But if his character is telling my character how wrong he is, then I personally am not offended. It's the nature of his character to come off strongly.

One of the things that could be discussed at this conference is when should we mark our comments with <ic> or <ooc> and when should we assume a certain voice. This forum should probably be assumed <ic>, but this whole thread was started with an <ooc> point of view, so I've been speaking mostly <ooc>.

oldmess wrote:You've hit upon a key point in my mind. I totally respect that some characters are extremists and while my character disagrees with their characters, I personally believe that both types of characters have a place in this world. I'm hoping that out of this conference will come a framework that allows both types of characters to exist (even if they may be at odds).

I don't disagree that the worship of Jena is very law oriented (primarily because I don't pretend to have read as much of it as others have), but that is not inconsistent with the way real people worship their gods. Every religion has an ideal; within that, it has some people that try to live up to that ideal fanatically and others that simply try to live loosely within the general ideal. I believe that we need to encourage role players to embody all different kinds of characters, not just the most extreme examples.

No one is saying that people have to play an extremist. The issue is that you have 2 defined religions. One is the Karavan. It is a strict religion with laws and obedience central to it's operation. The other is the Kami. It's a very opened ended religion where one of the benefits is the ability to intrepet the meaning of things. What is happening in game (and it bugs me and serveral people to death) is that you have people picking the strict and obiediant religion and saying there is no issue with them interpreting it. If you want to interpret things and have free thought about the religion, you would be playing a Kami supporter.

I'd also like to make a comment about the fact that Madnak is saying that I am getting the Karavan laws and structure mixed up with Matis laws and structure. Well that makes no difference in his case because he is a member of both the Matis Race and the Karavan. To try to argue that he is a Karavan following Matis that is allowed to interpert things is pretty much saying he isn't a Karavan Matis supporter. Even more to the point though is that the Matis laws and structure can not be different than the Karavan laws and structure, because that is what it is based from.

Right now it's becomming almost impossible to roleplay becuase many of us don't have a clue what people are roleplaying as. Take me for example. I play an extreme Kami supporter that hates the KAravan, dislikes most Trykers and Matis because they support the Karavan. Now when I go around in game many who are Karavan and hold Karavan titles aren't really Karavan supporters, but neutral. The ones that play a Karavan aren't really against the Kami or the Kami supporters, but tolerant of them. Many Matis are saying they don't have to follow the laws of the Karavan or Jena, that they can interpret things as they see fit. So if no one is following some basic guidelines setup by the lore, how the heck is anyone suppose to rp?

If nothing else becomes of this meeting we need to set some definations that can not be broken. If you play a Karavan supporter, what do you stand for, what does it mean? If you play a Kami supporter, what do you stand for, what does that mean? Many will say that the RL is not black and white, so why should this game be? It's simple, in order to play a game there has to be set rules, guidelines, and definitions. You can not play a game without them.

I'm sure everyone will agree that when you RP you are acting a part. Well how can you act a part if you have no clue what the basic story is and what the things in it mean? How can you act a part when you have no clue what an of the other actors play?

If we can't do that, then there really is no point in doing any sort of RP.

raynes wrote:Right now it's becomming almost impossible to roleplay becuase many of us don't have a clue what people are roleplaying as. .........
If nothing else becomes of this meeting we need to set some definations that can not be broken. ........... It's simple, in order to play a game there has to be set rules, guidelines, and definitions. You can not play a game without them.
I'm sure everyone will agree that when you RP you are acting a part. Well how can you act a part if you have no clue what the basic story is and what the things in it mean? How can you act a part when you have no clue what an of the other actors play?
If we can't do that, then there really is no point in doing any sort of RP.

#1- Take a breath. Clearly you're more accustomed to scripted theater than improvisation. In scripted theater, boundaries are set, you know the full plot, and it's all well and good and tight rules are kept. In improv, more often than not, you're thrown into a scene not knowing more than just who you are, and being able to see the "set" around you.

Roleplay, when taken to an immersive environment such as an MMO is typically a full blown freeform stage for Improvisation.

This is not an easy environment for many people, and for someone new to roleplaying can be quite intimidating, but so long as people have a general feel of the cultures and assorted backgrounds, and have a secure idea of who they want their character to be, there should be no issue.

You play your character. You enter the world, and act, and react accordingly to thier beliefs, ideas, needs, and motivations. If you are a Kami cultist, you simply play a kami cultist. You don't need to know if X-matis is nuetral/jena lover/reformed kami follower etc, whatever to talk with them icly and find out, or even roleplay out a great argument or discussion. You, be your character. You, react as your character would to whatever it is they come across.

and, here's the key- you let the people you are roleplaying and reacting to know that OOC you are just playing, and ensure they are game and want to roleplay with you, be it argue, duel, or even simply hang out in the local pub.

Today I was out IC hunting around pyr, and we came across a great Mage of a clearly upper level. Our group of roleplayers all paused in awe and respect, and talked with him. Before long it was clear he was uncomfortable around the matis in our group, and preferred an od older dialect of Fyros speech. My character, who is forever on her quest for news of her brother, noted the more elder stance of the man and asked for any news. This guy, who OOC of course had no clue who her brother is/was, decided he had heard of him, but had no location to give. Only that her brother had done something nice for him, and he owed her recompense in respect for it. He made her a sword, in honor of this completely fictional deed.

I still have no clear clue what specific bent or background he was trying to play, but because we interacted IC I know he is likely of a more egocentric fyros clan, and one who prefers to revive the old ways of the lands, and doesn't trust Matis. What old ways of the lands? doesn't matter.

If he has a totally different idea of them than any other fyros out there, he still played them well and we had a cool bit of interaction IC.

And that's the point of good roleplay.

The minute you set down "rules that can't be broken" about anything in a creative manner, someone comes along and decides they wanna play thier character in a way that would break them, and it starts wars over something that should never be viewed half as tense.

as far as the basic story, a fast glance over the main website gives more than enough of the basics to set any roleplay environment with no need for more clarification, because our imaginations are what define the real story we live and play out. not a conference nor the game.

stop thinking inside your box of religious conventions, cannon and rules, and start thinking about the players and roleplayers who are all out there looking for a way in, waiting for that sign that says "go for it" to just start playing thier characters, so the real fun can begin.

Focus on the OOC respect, and the IC fun will flourish, without need for other tight rules of cannon or anything, really. People will play and roleplay it thier own way, and that's a GOOD thing.

Eohlwyn, of course you are going to have to improvise when there is no set ending (as in the example you gave with your quest for your outcasted brother), but there is clearly a story here that has been set forth by the developers. They have a design plan for the story of hominkind. Right now, we are trying to secure our foothold in the Newfound Lands against the Kitins. All the while, homins are taking sides in conflict of philosophies. You can't have a nature-loving, interpretive Karavan follower be against a nature-loving, interpretive Kami follower.

The history of hominkind is rife with conflict between the races. Recently, with our emergence from the Prime Roots Sanctuary, the races have polarized with their belief in either the Kami or Karavan. As a player, you have four choices... don't involve yourself, straddle the fence and belong to nothing (losing legitimacy with those who stand for something), support the Karavan, or support the Kami. The difference between the last two is in their basic philosophies, not who or what they worship. Most players are smart enough to know that there isn't actually a Jena or Ma-Duk, despite how they might roleplay it.

How do you react to someone when they don't define themselves as something? We do need to know what people believe. The definitions provided by the lore are pretty clear. The Church of Jena isn't a buffet line of your favorite aspects, its a huge horsepill you have to take all at once. Hopefully people realise that, otherwise it will be impossible to RP when you have to ask everyone what they specifically believe in.

ackir wrote:Eohlwyn, of course you are going to have to improvise when there is no set ending (as in the example you gave with your quest for your outcasted brother), but there is clearly a story here that has been set forth by the developers. They have a design plan for the story of hominkind. Right now, we are trying to secure our foothold in the Newfound Lands against the Kitins. All the while, homins are taking sides in conflict of philosophies. ................
How do you react to someone when they don't define themselves as something? .........otherwise it will be impossible to RP when you have to ask everyone what they specifically believe in.

From what I understand of the design plan that the developers have set and avertised as (honestly) one of the key selling points that got me into this game, the outcome while guided along an idea they're leading, is not set. It is effected in a real way by how we as players delve into the world and go at the tools they gave us to determine it, and the land battle against the kitin.

I about fell out of my chair last weekend when i realized the winning of that one event meant the devs physically added a new portal between lands. That's just.. well my jaw is still near the floor having come from a truely static world.

similarly, because there is no pre-determined outcome for how conflicts of philosophies will be resolved (outside of amber cubes in our day to day roleplay lives), we have the freedom to just, play things as we each see them, having read over what backgrounds we chose, and devoting time to creating a character we each individually chose to play.

as far as reacting to someone who has not defined themselves.. how do you respond to agnostics in real life? You simply treat them as any other person, or in game, as any other character, and allow your character to respond accordingly. does that mean that there will be these "nuetrals" and large grey areas that are hard for solid kami/karavan supporters to deal with in the roleplay arena? Yes. But I fail to see why that diversity and challenge is a negative thing.

I also don't understand why you believe you have to know what everyone believes in order to roleplay with them. Half the fun in roleplay is meeting people as your character goes along and discovering in game, in play what thier assorted story/beliefs are. If I knew off the bat that a certain homin was a obsessive cultist and not just some guy I happened to meet, I miss out on some cool in character discovery as to his and my own character, not to mention on what would happen if he discovered I was related to a follower of the opposite faction, or some such plot twist. It's fifty times more fun to learn one on one what each character believes, (and even for those in war mode, isn't it more fun to be roleplaying with a given person, then find yourself fighting them on the battle field on the opposite line!/gasp!..? It changes story, it makes it richer, than simply going "oh, matis= this or x-guild= that.")

I think the larger idea out here that people seem to be stuck on is that there's supposed to be some OVER-game you all are supposed to be following in story and plot, and that is simply not true, no matter what fictional universe you're set in.

The key word there being Fictional Universe.

If you limit yourselves and your roleplay to such a concept of "set beliefs" within any "cannon", you miss out on a scene that is free and fully able to evolve, the play becomes static, and you box off options down the line for freeform and improv to shape a truely dynamic tale of many homins.

Not to mention, no matter how you define those philosophies, you will always alienate someone from the scene by placing limits. With a roleplay scene this small and under developed yet, do you really want to start it off by turning anyone away due to differing ideas of cannon?

(OOC)

I aggree with Eohlwyn's reasoning here.

I'm sure everyone will agree that when you RP you are acting a part. Well how can you act a part if you have no clue what the basic story is and what the things in it mean?

Maybe your part is clueless? Ignorant? Corrupted? Player can know much more than the character. And character can be wrong about things, on purpose. Divided loyalities, so many more layers than Kami vs. Karavan.
I would prefer relaxed roleplaying environment without rp-police. But discussing these things is a good thing.

Eohlwyn, you seem to misunderstand what I am getting at. I am not trying to force anyone into labels. I love meeting new people and like each one's unique approach to storytelling. That is not the point of my argument.

I am saying that when a player labels their character as something (note: not me labelling them) and plays that way, there needs to be consistancy with the lore.

If the majority of roleplayers here really think that anyone should be able to be or do anything then I am changing my story to something like this:

A Zorai who claims allegience to the Kami. I worship Jena as a supreme being and also the leader of the Kitin. Elias Tryton and Ma-Duk are obviously her consort/manservants, all males are weak and inferior to females. I assist the Kitin in any way possible because I think homins are the true invaders, not the other way around. I wantonly go around slaying homins, it is the Will of Jena. Also, I manipulate nature in an attempt to spread the Goo because I see it as nature's way of fighting back the homin expansionism. And I commonly harvest areas to exhaustion simply to destroy the materials later, I believe overharvesting toughens the resiliance of nature. You will never find a more devout Kami follower than me though.

eohlwyn wrote:#1- Take a breath. Clearly you're more accustomed to scripted theater than improvisation. In scripted theater, boundaries are set, you know the full plot, and it's all well and good and tight rules are kept. In improv, more often than not, you're thrown into a scene not knowing more than just who you are, and being able to see the "set" around you.

Roleplay, when taken to an immersive environment such as an MMO is typically a full blown freeform stage for Improvisation.

This is not an easy environment for many people, and for someone new to roleplaying can be quite intimidating, but so long as people have a general feel of the cultures and assorted backgrounds, and have a secure idea of who they want their character to be, there should be no issue.

You play your character. You enter the world, and act, and react accordingly to thier beliefs, ideas, needs, and motivations. If you are a Kami cultist, you simply play a kami cultist. You don't need to know if X-matis is nuetral/jena lover/reformed kami follower etc, whatever to talk with them icly and find out, or even roleplay out a great argument or discussion. You, be your character. You, react as your character would to whatever it is they come across.

and, here's the key- you let the people you are roleplaying and reacting to know that OOC you are just playing, and ensure they are game and want to roleplay with you, be it argue, duel, or even simply hang out in the local pub.

Today I was out IC hunting around pyr, and we came across a great Mage of a clearly upper level. Our group of roleplayers all paused in awe and respect, and talked with him. Before long it was clear he was uncomfortable around the matis in our group, and preferred an od older dialect of Fyros speech. My character, who is forever on her quest for news of her brother, noted the more elder stance of the man and asked for any news. This guy, who OOC of course had no clue who her brother is/was, decided he had heard of him, but had no location to give. Only that her brother had done something nice for him, and he owed her recompense in respect for it. He made her a sword, in honor of this completely fictional deed.

I still have no clear clue what specific bent or background he was trying to play, but because we interacted IC I know he is likely of a more egocentric fyros clan, and one who prefers to revive the old ways of the lands, and doesn't trust Matis. What old ways of the lands? doesn't matter.

If he has a totally different idea of them than any other fyros out there, he still played them well and we had a cool bit of interaction IC.

And that's the point of good roleplay.

The minute you set down "rules that can't be broken" about anything in a creative manner, someone comes along and decides they wanna play thier character in a way that would break them, and it starts wars over something that should never be viewed half as tense.

as far as the basic story, a fast glance over the main website gives more than enough of the basics to set any roleplay environment with no need for more clarification, because our imaginations are what define the real story we live and play out. not a conference nor the game.

stop thinking inside your box of religious conventions, cannon and rules, and start thinking about the players and roleplayers who are all out there looking for a way in, waiting for that sign that says "go for it" to just start playing thier characters, so the real fun can begin.

Focus on the OOC respect, and the IC fun will flourish, without need for other tight rules of cannon or anything, really. People will play and roleplay it thier own way, and that's a GOOD thing.

In the real world if you come across a Catholic or a Southern Baptist, or a Jewish person you know are are certain things they beleive in that makes them a part of that group. We need to have certain set definitions in game. Right now if someone says they are a Karavan follower that doesn't mean anything becuase there is no clear idea what the Karavan represent. You could say the website and lore tell us that, but people in the game don't follow that.