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Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:06 pm
by raynes
tetra wrote:Mostly by ignoring
petty grudges and having the folks with the brains and support of a large enough glob of power in the raid decide among themselves. Yes this means that you might not get to pick raynes. Yes this means that you might have to discuss among your group/guild who to support. Yes this means that even if you do support them, you might wind up following someone you didn't want to support. Lyrah explained it pretty well... when you have more experience in doing raids in MMO's raynes, you too will understand how the political bickering process works before mmo's
There is another thing needed... the ability to see who was the first person to attack a mob. During the matis>tryker>zorai crossing yesterday, there was a special group of dimwits that hung out in the back of the trail of folks, and consistantly attacked nonaggro herbavores. Not accidentally... no.. half the time we weren't even in a fight... just *poof* a healer is complaining that a yelk is attacking them cause they healed some folks... *poof* a bunch of folks are being killed by gnoofs... the entire trip. It was so bad that at one point folks were just asking the idiots who wouldn't fess up to simply not attack anything any longer and just follow the pack without fighting even when there is a fight. The ability to say go die is important neofuzz, there is a difference between accidental and intentional stupidity.
And you are at least partly wrong as well... one becomes an experienced raider, by going on raids, doing what they are told, and not making stupid moves that get the party wiped. Most folks have this thing called a brain that is able to tell them things like "hmm... those are aggro.... and lots of them... maybe I shouldn't run otu there into them" or "hmm we are getting attacked from behind... maybe I should say something" or "one person ran off after being told to by the folks in charge, but the rest of the group is standing here waiting... maybe I should stand here to or ask someone"... or even better....
Joe and steve are the same type of class as me... he heals things/breaks things/takes damage/melts things, maybe I should do what joe and steve do and stick with the group if one of them does something really effing wierd like running off to pull alone.
Ok, what are you talking about????? No one said anything about me picking anything. Second you don't have a clue how I interact with my guild. It's very clear from your statement that you have no real concept of how I interact with my guild. Instead of making assumptions and making things up, why don't you ask them.
If you honestly think that there aren't any individuals that would jump at the chance to run every event or try to keep the same people running them all the time, then you are a fool and lack an understanding of human nature. And Aurgia hit it exactly right, someone announces they are a leader then doesn't actually lead, they just run off without care or concern for the people following them.
No, the solution isn't the ability to have one group with one leader. That can't and will never work. They dynamics of it are simply impossible. What needs to happen is there needs to be a way to have better communication between the smaller groups. Give the group leaders their own chat channel. Because if all of the group leaders could actually discuss and plan together without everyone in thier brother screaming, things would go much smoother.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:17 pm
by zumwalt
Good ideas. Some would be bug fixes in my eyes.
As far as the entire raid thing..
Its a ladder system anyway, or atleast it should be, first off, the raid leader is the person in power, and thus should not hand hold everyone following him/her.
That person would then designate raid coordinators, 2 or 3 people under him who would be responsible for controling different aspects of the raid.
Leader = Controls Direction and Goal, Designates Main Tank
Coordinators = Controls heal orders and groups, along with looting where applicable.
In a real raid, there is not enough time for the Leader to have to control every aspect of the raid, so you have to have the master / commander / followers layout.
I have dealt with way to many raids over the past 6 years in several mmo's, that if its not done as above, its a CF no matter what you try.
Hope to see your list come to life!
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:35 pm
by jdiegel
raynes wrote:
And Aurgia hit it exactly right, someone announces they are a leader then doesn't actually lead, they just run off without care or concern for the people following them.
Actually, I was talking about the players ignoring the leader, not the other way around.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:14 pm
by gddss
raynes wrote:The only problem with having a designated leader, is how do you pick who it is? And how do you make sure that events and raids don't become a things where a few people and their friends are always the ones who end up in the lead positions?
Having a raid engine isn't going affect that. As is stands we generally already have a few people who are mostly leading these events. If it does end up that these are still the people leading the events most of the time down the road, that will only be because people wish it to be that way and noone else has stepped up and done it themselves. At least with a raid engine that designated the leader, it would give our chaotic gatherings more organization and less time consuming frustrating moments.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:20 pm
by zumwalt
My experience in Ryzom is that the majority of wasted time for the players is trying to organize the groups, simply because there is no central organization mechanism, which looks like it would be covered here if they iplament some of the list.
It has taken up to an hour in this game to try to get everyone in place, then organized into groups, let alone some guilds want to keep all there players in there groups, on top of that is the heal issue.
Raids should have a longer than a 2 minute respawn time, like 5 minutes.
They should also have an equal distribution system for the quest loot that drops in raids, so that everyone in a group gets the chance to loot atleast 1 of the items.
As it stands right now, only the "kill" group gets to do the looting.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 pm
by tinpony
zumwalt wrote:As it stands right now, only the "kill" group gets to do the looting.
I don't know who in the 'kill group' got time to loot. Last raid, I was so busy defending, I almost never got time to loot anything. I got about 10 pieces of meat compared to 70+ for others. In fact, the person I know who got the most loot was an elemental mage. They had a little more time than the tanks who were moving from target to target and the healers who were healing tank after tank. Maybe make the raid loots shareable. I know in our XP groupings, one person often takes all the mats and offers a share after. That probably won't work very well in a raid scenario, I can see a couple flaws in it myself like what happens when you change groups, what happens when the groups are mixed guilds/indeps and what happens if someone simply doesn't share?
I mean, I can attempt to loot... or I can stop a herd of gibbai from eating my healers. Hmmm...
Tin.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:58 pm
by balsalt
Well darn, got here too late to add anything new, so I'll just say...what Fuzz said through out this thread is pretty much word for word what I would of added.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:19 pm
by grandma
i knew there was a reason i stay out of "general" forums....bickering and whining. :0)
hehe, if anyone who was under my leadership during the raid has an issue with what i did...please feel free to organize a massive trek or hunt...i volunteer my guild to be under your command throughout the march. heck i'll even gather up a large group (50+ players) for you. :0)
by "what i did" i mean these people i've never heard of complaining about me stepping down from leading the mob...and it was a MOB not an army :0)
i've lead many a march/raid and am confident in my leadership skills as well as those of a few others whom i respect. i have my own protocol for leading large groups, which we have a training event for tonight in tryker. MASSIVE combat training in Fairhaven tonight at 8pm/20:00 eastern. this was scheduled for yesterday, however due to cable service issues beyond my control, i had to postpone it until today, Monday 2004-12-06.
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:35 pm
by xenofur
i have taken most of the simpler ideas from here and posted them in the ats-forum which is (supposedly) read by the devs, time will tell what happens =)
Re: We *must* have the tools needed for mass events to not be a cluster****
Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:09 pm
by zumwalt
*gfunk rocks, hands down*
now with that aside
Loot is a topic all in itself. especially in raids, this game should not give loot out during the raid if it means the loot designates how much you get as far as a reward once it is said and done.
Anyway
I have lead a few 'movements' in the game (and will do more in the future), so I feel your pain Gfunk.
Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.