Ryzom

personally my problems is that I see a fantastic engine, with some nice background and some great people playing that has the potential to be a very good MMORPG, with even some emphasis on the RPG which makes a change.

But it plays like a beta - having armour degradations screwed, the balance between shield vs 2h tanking not worked out properly, the fact that there are no q50+ mats in tryker, the lack of actual content etc etc are not examples of little bugs I'd expect to see ironed out as the game progresses. I do object to people making posts telling people giving criticism to stop whining - these people have paid hard cash to play a game - why the hell should they have to become part-time systems testers for Nevrax?! This is more than a few bugs. Its all very well saying that MMORPG development occurs in phases but we're not talking about adding some extra content for higher levels, or adding in new areas to explore - we're talking about fundamental bugs with the mechanics and completely absent content. Compare the state of DAOC when it was released and the state of Ryzom and you find a totally different picture.

The servers are not highly populated at the moment and these bugs are driving people away at a time when Nevrax need to be building on their client base before the release of the big games like WoW and EQ2 - cos if the servers empty too much there won't be any point playing.

Rather than 'voting with my subscription' and going somewhere else I'd like to see some recognition by the developers/Nevrax of all the points that have been raised and some answers to what they will do to address specific issues. This at least would give me faith that decisions are being made to solve some of our problems and give me the confidence to carry on investing time in the hope that future patches will redress some of the balance. I'd rather the game was fixed than just watch it die off. I dont' have that visibility at the moment tho.

krone9 wrote:personally my problems is that I see a fantastic engine, with some nice background and some great people playing that has the potential to be a very good MMORPG, with even some emphasis on the RPG which makes a change.

So you've played the retail for your 'free month' then, and your'e going to play more?

krone9 wrote:But it plays like a beta - having armour degradations screwed, the balance between shield vs 2h tanking not worked out properly, the fact that there are no q50+ mats in tryker, the lack of actual content etc etc are not examples of little bugs I'd expect to see ironed out as the game progresses.

You quote 3 problems and then throw in the cliche of lack of actual content, what do you mean by this exactly? What more content do you want? Have you specified it? Have you posted it sensibly in a new thread with your suggestions?

krone9 wrote:I do object to people making posts telling people giving criticism to stop whining - these people have paid hard cash to play a game - why the hell should they have to become part-time systems testers for Nevrax?!

They paid hard cash (not that there is any other form of cash - like soft cash) for the game, as it was on release, for better or worse. With that they get a months play. Thats it. If they're not happy as it stands, then stop paying. You're not telling me that a months play out of a boxed game isn't reasonable, most console games give you 10-20 hours max! Unless, you're saying the month you've just played was terrible and lacking, but if it was why the hell did you play it for a month?

krone9 wrote:This is more than a few bugs. Its all very well saying that MMORPG development occurs in phases but we're not talking about adding some extra content for higher levels, or adding in new areas to explore - we're talking about fundamental bugs with the mechanics and completely absent content.

I never mentioned development occurs in phases at all, I said it was dynamic, indicating that development is constant, all the time. You pay your subs to take part in the game, for better and for worse. Some patches mess with game mechanics unforeseen, what is the most important thing to shout about is whether these things are being addressed and are fully documented and understood. The general letter of complaint that started this thread was neither fully comprehensive, nor constructive in any way.

krone9 wrote:Compare the state of DAOC when it was released and the state of Ryzom and you find a totally different picture.

Well go play DAOC if it was that good. Comparing different games and their launches and features and problems is irrelevent really.

krone9 wrote:The servers are not highly populated at the moment and these bugs are driving people away at a time when Nevrax need to be building on their client base before the release of the big games like WoW and EQ2 - cos if the servers empty too much there won't be any point playing.

Regardless of the state of development of the game and its problems, EQ2 and WoW are going to happen, and holding their release over the Ryzom devs heads as a threat of lost customer base is just petty. Those two MMORPG's are coming out, big style, and people will play them, and migrate from other MMORPG's regardless of bug fixes and what not. If you like Ryzom, you'll play it. If you don't you'll move on. And thats the Ryzom as it is now, and as it will be when the other two are released. Ryzom is going to be a niche game, its not going to go head to head with those two at any level whatsoever, why do people who complain always bring their release up? Pointless.

krone9 wrote:Rather than 'voting with my subscription' and going somewhere else I'd like to see some recognition by the developers/Nevrax of all the points that have been raised and some answers to what they will do to address specific issues.

So you want personal thanks from them? You want them to spend their time buttering up players who cry out at the games issues. Hell you don't want much for the cost of a single boxed game do you?

The devs are responding to players observations and well documented problems, just read the proposed patches 1 and 2 to see the issues that are being dealt with. Some of these issues have been raised by players who are willing to contribute to the games development. I'm not saying every player wants to, or should do this, but there are people who care about the game that will do this. I've seen more effort on the part of Nevrax about communicating with their customers and informing their customers about future patches, than I have in any other MMORPG game. Because they are niche, they are much closer to their customerbase, so they can afford close liason. Letters like the one at the beginning of this thread do nothing to help that liason.

krone9 wrote:This at least would give me faith that decisions are being made to solve some of our problems and give me the confidence to carry on investing time in the hope that future patches will redress some of the balance.

So now they have to restore your faith in the game, as well as develop it? If you've lost faith why are you still here? Is it because EQ2 and WoW aren't out yet? They've served information up about the forthcoming patches. Isn't that what you wanted? If you have specific issues then report them, and wait for an answer. Again, the letter didn't address specific issues in a constructive way at all.

krone9 wrote:I'd rather the game was fixed than just watch it die off. I dont' have that visibility at the moment tho.

You must have some visibility if you can see it dying off after 4 weeks or so online. I mean theres always the inevitable drop off of players once the first free month is over. Perhaps you have guild members who are leaving in droves because of specific issues? People leave MMORPG's everyday. Because of various reasons, not just purely in-game technical reasons. Again I question why you stay with the game, if you're so disheartened by it as it stands.

Personally, even with some of the problems mentioned, I am still enjoying the game, and my first taste of the invasion event has left me feeling that the Ryzom game and community will be an interesting place to game for a while.

Jeezus Coinneach have ye no got happy pills in the collective UKM Sporran

Spelk has some good points there as has Krone. I cancelled my sub. but I will reinstate it when it comes due.
I cancelled for alot of the reasons given by Krone, but I since joined a good guild (Samsara) and it opened a whole new world for me compared to my last guild.
The game has become more organic now, insofar as I don't have to grind now, we each have a designated role in the game that compliments the input of the other members. We have our own forum for advice and Roleplaying.
We can hang out together in-game and plan events for future endeavours.

What I'm trying to say is, I think the game is heavily weighted towards guilds, for example Spelk is in UKM, a finer bunch of guys you will never meet, Ginzo and Coinneach were very helpful to me at the start, the new guild have taken me to the next stage. Maybe if you found a guild of like-minded people, your opinion of the game would change. for me, I'm staying and i've cancelled SWG and Eve as I feel more at home here.

fiach wrote:Did ya finish composing your epic Ode to Valda or did ya just go to sleepybyes wi yer drunkin' heid

lol im well confused now :/




Silverions post is down to the T, If people have a complaint they should post constructivly and with as much information as possible then people would be more willing to help. Soon as I see certain whine buzz words i dont read no more (or if i had a few we drams i cant seem to keep the trap shut).


There is one game i have played that from day 1 2001 September there was a post NDB (no damage bug). Just a couple of days ago there was still a discussing about it so think how lucky we are that we have a dev team doing the best they can and not a dev team that release 1 patch then never hear from ever again

desolis wrote:Epic Ode to Valda.........lol im well confused now :/

I'm Valda...LOL you were well pissed that night Ya drunkin scots bun

My 2 cent.

If you like Ryzom and have hopes it will be the game you will play for a while longer, stay. If not, why stay with it?

I am sure Neverax is doing their best to fix all the issues they have. But do you think balancing will be done with patch1? I can tell you it won't. Balancing will be a ever ongoing process. There are just too many factors involved to get it right. And even if some people thinks its just perfect, others won't.

At the moment I am sure they focus all their efforts on making the servers more stable and available and the client more crash free (for those that still experience crashes). These technical issues have to be fixed first before they can put more effort in expanding the features.

I on my part still have a lot of fun. I will stay at least till patch 2. And likely a lot longer. Only the total death of the community will drive me off.

spelk wrote:So you've played the retail for your 'free month' then, and your'e going to play more?

Yes. I'll play another month for definite - whether I play the next month I'm not sure yet.

spelk wrote: You quote 3 problems and then throw in the cliche of lack of actual content, what do you mean by this exactly? What more content do you want? Have you specified it? Have you posted it sensibly in a new thread with your suggestions?

Sorry - yes I have posted it sensibly on other threads - I forget whether it was a new thread or not, and I've also made many many suggestions using the ingame functionality. By actual content I mean real ways that players can have an effect on the game (eg outposts and being able to fight for them, plot we can get involved in - both major plot and subplots, delivered by meaningful npcs with different meaningful outcomes or delivered by players themselves thru game mechanics designed to support them, reasons to ally with other realms, a use for money ie an economy of some sort etc.
there's plenty more examples...

spelk wrote:You're not telling me that a months play out of a boxed game isn't reasonable, most console games give you 10-20 hours max! Unless, you're saying the month you've just played was terrible and lacking, but if it was why the hell did you play it for a month?

I've had a lot of gameplay out of this game over the last month - far more than from a standard single player game. However I've also had far more bugs and downtime, more crashes and reboots - I would not have bought a single player game that was as buggy as this and have only perservered with the expectation of improvement in the near future.

spelk wrote:Well go play DAOC if it was that good. Comparing different games and their launches and features and problems is irrelevent really.

Nice mature answer there. Ok I'll bite. DAOC is old now - I stopped playing it for a number of reasons which are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't see comparing launch states as irrelevant at all - in fact I think it is entirely pertinent and Nevrax should use their peers as examples of what sort of state a game should be in upon launch. If its better then great! Lots of happy customers. But if its worse, and it is - a lot worse - then you've got to expect a lot of negative feedback. At the end of the day customer expectations will be set by games they've played previously. DAOC was very very good imho, but Ryzom has the potential to be better. However the mistakes that are being made are seriously jeapardising that potential.

spelk wrote: Regardless of the state of development of the game and its problems, EQ2 and WoW are going to happen, and holding their release over the Ryzom devs heads as a threat of lost customer base is just petty. Those two MMORPG's are coming out, big style, and people will play them, and migrate from other MMORPG's regardless of bug fixes and what not.

True. I worry that people will move just because Ryzom is so buggy tho not because of 'good' reasons to move such as the game style doesn't suit them.

spelk wrote: So you want personal thanks from them? You want them to spend their time buttering up players who cry out at the games issues. Hell you don't want much for the cost of a single boxed game do you?

You've misunderstood me - I was asking for an announcement from the devs about their current scope for development/patch fixing on a regular basis. If I raise a problem at the moment, I get no feedback as to whether it has been looked at and rejected, or scheduled for immediate fixing, or delayed fixing. So it would be good to have some idea of what is going to be fixed and when, and what is going to stay as is. Once a week would be fine and not a massive amount of effort. It would also closely integrate the playing community with the developers, and give the impression that feedback is being listened to and responded to. Easy win I would have thought.

spelk wrote: So now they have to restore your faith in the game, as well as develop it? If you've lost faith why are you still here? Is it because EQ2 and WoW aren't out yet? They've served information up about the forthcoming patches. Isn't that what you wanted? If you have specific issues then report them, and wait for an answer. Again, the letter didn't address specific issues in a constructive way at all.

They would restore my faith by developing the game and addressing the most important issues as seen by the player base. The upcoming patches don't address enough of these problems. I haven't lost faith totally (or I wouldn't be here as you rightly say) but every crash, every reboot, every time I see a game mechanic that hasn't been thought through and tested properly pushes me closer to that point. Yes I've raised specific issues - no idea if they've been even looked at tho - see my previous point.

spelk wrote: You must have some visibility if you can see it dying off after 4 weeks or so online. I mean theres always the inevitable drop off of players once the first free month is over. Perhaps you have guild members who are leaving in droves because of specific issues? People leave MMORPG's everyday. Because of various reasons, not just purely in-game technical reasons. Again I question why you stay with the game, if you're so disheartened by it as it stands.

I would expect there to be a lot more players in game at this point - it annoys me for example that they've built a system so heavily reliant on player crafters but I cannot find a crafter to make me goods anywhere near the quality I want, simply because there aren't enough players online. I know one crafter who can make what I need and he is very very busy. My visibility - the little I have - is that this is a vicious circle. If lots more people leave then this problem is exascerbated - causing more people to leave etc. So obviously I don't want people to decide to leave for reasons that could be resolved relatively easily. Why am I still here? I'll say it again, Ryzom has the potential to be a fantastic game. All the advance info I've seen leads me to think that the developers and designers have some really good ideas to implement. At the moment tho its all talk and what we have is a fantastic engine, with a nice game world but a below average game.

spelk wrote:Personally, even with some of the problems mentioned, I am still enjoying the game, and my first taste of the invasion event has left me feeling that the Ryzom game and community will be an interesting place to game for a while.

You're obviously a lot easier to please then.

krone9 wrote:Nice mature answer there.

Well it was you who brought DAOC in as a comparison. It seemed logical to me that if it was much better than Ryzom, why did you leave it?

krone9 wrote:Ok I'll bite. DAOC is old now - I stopped playing it for a number of reasons which are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't see comparing launch states as irrelevant at all - in fact I think it is entirely pertinent and Nevrax should use their peers as examples of what sort of state a game should be in upon launch. If its better then great! Lots of happy customers. But if its worse, and it is - a lot worse - then you've got to expect a lot of negative feedback.

You see you are comparing launches between different games. Let me throw another into the mix, Anarchy Online's launch was terrible compared to Ryzom, and yet it is a very successful MMORPG even to this day. Saying Ryzom's launch was terrible compared to DAOC is the same and it doesn't really show or prove anything where Ryzom's development is concerned. Sure, they should all learn off each other, but the development of these games are entirely separate, their priorities and low level mechanisms are different, the whole business end and development environment surrounding them is different. I think the evolution of the MMORPG genre has looked back at what has come before and many new games emerging are "hybrids" in terms of game mechanics and what not, but technical issues and even marketing issues, particularly at launch are so different that comparisons don't seem relevant (to me anyway).

krone9 wrote:Once a week would be fine and not a massive amount of effort. It would also closely integrate the playing community with the developers, and give the impression that feedback is being listened to and responded to. Easy win I would have thought.

It is easy for players to demand information on a timetable like this regarding patches, but I'll wager it is difficult for the developers to keep to any schedule raised by a player. For what its worth, Nevrax seem to have done a sterling job in informing the users of patch information, and player suggestions and balancing issues have to be carefully considered - I don't think you'll get one-to-one replies to your lists on these forums, especially not with concrete decisions being made. The community liason officer will field information as and when is necessary.

krone9 wrote:They would restore my faith by developing the game and addressing the most important issues as seen by the player base. The upcoming patches don't address enough of these problems.

One step at a time, eh? Issues are being addressed.

krone9 wrote:I haven't lost faith totally (or I wouldn't be here as you rightly say) but every crash, every reboot, every time I see a game mechanic that hasn't been thought through and tested properly pushes me closer to that point. Yes I've raised specific issues - no idea if they've been even looked at tho - see my previous point.

As I said you're not going to get personal touch. But its a positive step that you are raising issues for the to look at.

krone9 wrote:I would expect there to be a lot more players in game at this point

Ryzom is a niche MMORPG. Most gamers I've mentioned it to haven't heard of it. Even regular MMORPG players. The game seemed to have initial distribution problems, I couldn't find a retail shop anywhere in the UK that had it in stock on its release. So its been hampered a little by distribution. The online download is restricted to areas that haven't got it in retail. Which was a big mistake if you ask me, because online distribution should be global, if you want high distribution you have to make it available in as many ways as possible to the MMORPG gaming people. In the bigger market countries, limiting it to only retail was a bad move IMHO. I think Ryzom will grow slowly, and will gain a sort of cult following.

krone9 wrote:- it annoys me for example that they've built a system so heavily reliant on player crafters but I cannot find a crafter to make me goods anywhere near the quality I want, simply because there aren't enough players online.

Learn to craft them yourself? (I know it was a flippant remark, sorry, couldn't resist) - I agree the playerbase is limited - there perhaps aren't enough high level crafters around that can supply you with what you want, but, its only been out 4 weeks... give it time...

krone9 wrote: I know one crafter who can make what I need and he is very very busy. My visibility - the little I have - is that this is a vicious circle. If lots more people leave then this problem is exascerbated - causing more people to leave etc.

You think the lack of high level crafters at the moment, will cause people to leave the game? Perhaps I'm misreading you again there. But I think trying to point your finger at one specific cause here or there of people leaving the game is a bit of a mugs game. People leave for all sorts of reasons. Some of them have absolutely nothing to do with the game mechanic. You seem to be complaining about a lack of high crafting playerbase to support your current character and attributing that shortfall in player numbers to all the technical issues you so dilligently raise. I don't think its that cut and dry.

krone9 wrote:At the moment tho its all talk and what we have is a fantastic engine, with a nice game world but a below average game.

Its an enjoyable game for me. I'm playing it over any other MMOPRG past or present. It has a number of mechanics that I think mix up the experience and allow you to play how you want to play (I call this the "sandbox" gameplay mentality). Its good for casual and hardcore players. I really haven't had that many problems with the game personally. I had a few crashes, which seemed to be a result of having an ATI graphics card. I know whats coming up, for the short term at least, Nevrax seem willing to support the game at a close level, and the events I've seen really where exciting. I'd mark it above average. For the way I play.

krone9 wrote:You're obviously a lot easier to please then.

I must be just lucky I guess.

fiach wrote:Jeezus Coinneach have ye no got happy pills in the collective UKM Sporran

We only take the happy pills in-game. And usually Coin snaffles the lot of them before we get to the hunt site.

fiach wrote: What I'm trying to say is, I think the game is heavily weighted towards guilds, for example Spelk is in UKM, a finer bunch of guys you will never meet, Ginzo and Coinneach were very helpful to me at the start, the new guild have taken me to the next stage. Maybe if you found a guild of like-minded people, your opinion of the game would change. for me, I'm staying and i've cancelled SWG and Eve as I feel more at home here.

You can't attribute players leaving the game solely to technical issues and/or game balancing issues. And joining a guild has revitalised fiach's gameplay. It is Massive Multiplayer after all. Thanks for the compliment to the guys in UKM fiach. I found the comraderie during the invasion event the other night, not only in guild but also between guilds quite exciting.

I've completely forgotten what this whole thread was about, but I think the jist of it was a generalised letter of complaint aimed at the developers of the game. My point still stands, you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. Why harass yourself and these forums with badly worded general complaints, why not just move on to another game

Cor, I've blathered on a great deal. Still better than doing any actual work, eh? (and I'd love to know what Coin posted and the revoked - I have images of red faced scotsman firing spittle at the screen, whilst choking down another whiskey, and crafting another pair of red caster pants)

I agree with most of what you've said. Re AO - never played it so I'll take your word for it. Re DAOC, I stopped playing well over a year ago just cos it wasn't the game I wanted to play.

I guess the main thing I'd like to see is more details of the scope the developers are working to - based on their agenda not anything set by players, sure. If there are political reasons not to publish then I'll just have to live with it but I think it would go a long way towards restoring the patience of some people playing.

That way we can see if something is on the agenda to be fixed and when we can expect it - if I know this then I won't be moaning about it in the meantime.
If its not on the list I know to raise an issue about it (reducing the amount of duplicate suggestions/bug reports)
If a revised version of the list comes out and a problem I have raised still isn't on it then thats the point where I start moaning.
If something slips in the timeline, its not a problem - just a case of posting an explanation with each revised list as to why somethings didn't make it and others did.

If we dont' have this, the only options we have are to raise criticism in whatever media, ignore it or move to another game.

re the crafter issue - I made my point badly. The game is, to its credit, very reliant on the player base to supply other players needs - eg foragers will find it hard to forage on their own without fighters to protect them, fighters need crafters to make them weapons etc. I guess I'm wondering if its possible for Nevrax to partially fill this gap whilst we wait for the numbers to creep up. Eg a guide who can sell equipment at whatever price the players are selling at - perhaps with a limited stock. Or a guide who can act as a bodyguard at a similar level to the highest player lvl in the game and can be hired out for a price. Something like that anyway - would be worth the guides perhaps spending some time thinking about it as they're closer to the player base and the actual game as it evolves than the developers.