Ryzom

901941 wrote: please listen to me I know it all and I'm always right about these things.

Very, very funny Trixie.
I truly hope that was sarcasm.


Anyway, in my book a third faction, as opposed to staying neutral, could very well make sense if most of the above mentioned things would be considered.

It would have to have its drawbacks as well as its advantages. I won´t go now into what these would have to be, because someone would always say: "No, because..."
But only if players that chose this third faction would also choose to fight for it. To „fight the good fight“ is what justifies advantages in every conflict all over the world. Sadly. So, a third faction would have to be either a „secret resistance“ force offering certain variations of the advantages the other two do reap (which would be extremely hard to implement into the mechanics), or an open armed insurrection under the banner of for example Tryton, or any other name/entity. This would too have to offer certain variations on the advantages of the aforementioned other factions.

It should still be possible to stay truly neutral. Because neutrality isn´t a real faction. A true „neutral faction“ can only exist and become a significant factor in any warlike setting if its followers do choose to fight as mercenaries. True neutrality in a war setting doesn´t mean to stay out of the thick of it. It means throwing your lot with either side that has the current disadvantage to maintain balance and the war. Cruel as it sounds, the true driving force of neutrals in most war-settings is to keep the war going, because they stand to gain the most from it. They would become a true faction that the others would have to vie for and consider in their efforts to „fight the good fight“ and someday win the war. Allthewhile keeping their true goal of furthering the war hidden from their respective employees.
Remember the famous scene in „Braveheart“?

Longshanks, seeing the pretty small crowd of Scotsmen on the battlefield:
„Send the Irish. They don´t cost anything“
The Irish rush forward towards the Scots, the Scots rush towards the Irish, they meet in the middle of the battlefield:
„Hey, good to see you“ , „So great of you to come!“, „Long time no see!“ etc.
The Irish join the Scots against Longshanks and his Englishmen.
How cool was that?
Now imagine such a thing happening on an Atysian OP-War. - Oooh, the outrage. *LOL*

Since most players around here however do seem to equal neutrality with pacifism it would only make sense for them not to fight at all, if they choose „the third (or fourth) way“.
But then they still should not be able to reap any significant advantages over or equal to the other factions. Simply because they don´t „fight the good fight“ in this warlike setting.
They chose to be absolutely pacifistic, so why should any deity involved in the war offer them any advantage?

Now, if a supposed third or fourth faction would grant advantages for staying pacifistic it would again make sense. But only if these advantages were significantly different from those gained by way of fighting.
No weapons, no special Fight oriented skills, or Titles, no special armor and such. It would have to be something completely different, which would further peace in favor of war. The so called „Gandhi way“.
Now, who´s the first pacifist first to cry out against that?
At the moment it is OK as it is in my opinion. There is no third deity that would grant its followers any advantages for fighting for its cause, nor for staying pacifist. So its only logical that there are no real advantages to staying „neutral“ / „pacifistic“.

Trouble is, some players WANT to fight and stay „true neutrals“ and some players WANT to walk „Gandhi's path“. Both want what the others have, for „fighting the good fight“. Either without fighting it and being regarded as equals to those fighting, or for fighting on both sides, whichever suits the moment and gaining their pay for it. (Which also would function, if for example the dapper was worth more, or people would be willing to part with Supreme Loot as pay for mercenary forces on their side. But honestly, who would?)

So for all to have everything that the others have got there would have to be a system that would grant everyone the same advantages, or things that are equal to each other in game mechanics.
Trouble would then still be those people who will crop up always and still „want what the others have, because...“
I´ve seem Karavan aligned fighters „go Kami“ for a few days and vice versa, just to have a few of the „cool looking Kami/Karavan prices“. What about these, who don´t give a damn about the lore?
Best we can do is, ignore them, in my book.
And now don´t tell me that there aren´t any of those on Arispotle.

Would truly be nice to have something implemented to prevent this. But then some would complain again and all would start over... yay...

Anyway, I digress, sorry.

True Neutrality and pacifism are separate things in a Warlike Setting like Ryzom has become over the years. And not just by implementing PvP in the first place, but also by action of the players.
Everyone had the choice to stay out of the war. Only a few did so, so what does this tell us?
Players WANT conflict. Players WANT to reap advantages from their gameplay.
Players enjoy PvP and its just an equal part of this game as any other.
But equal part, doesn´t automatically mean „equal advantages“ for all.
It would be nice and Utopian if it did so, but that´s a dream we´ll have to wait and hope for.

There´ll be no hit of a switch and suddenly all´s well on Atys and everyone will have what everyone else does. We´ll have to wait for what´s in store over at Spiderweb. We can neither force the issue, nor do we have any chance of „peace in our time“, unless all players would choose to go pacifistic all at once. And that´s a truly Utopian thought.

And just as an afterthought, you keep forgetting the other servers.
Were people might just see things a whee bit differently. Because of a different mindset and/or different balance of the Factions vs. Neutrals/pacifists affair.


CU
Acridiel

Yes it was sarcasm, Acridel.

Thank you and everyone who has posted their thoughts.

Definetly agree with you that IF a third faction were a choice those who joined must fight for it just like those on Kami and Karavan side do. I don't want a Utopian setting and I'm not suggesting the third faction to be pacifist or neutral. It should be equal in power to the other two and give us the balance that has always been needed. As I see it there is no other entity in the lore that can bring forth a third faction other than Elias Tryton.

I don't agree that it needs to remain a secret faction it should have a face and one that is a threat to the views and position of the two factions. Neutrality isn't a faction, it is the default position and I don't think being neutral offers any balance to the game. You are right some players ignore the lore completely but we do not need to ignore them.

Some neutral guilds are true to their cause and they stay out of the OP wars and Faction conflicts. Others are own by alts and under a guise for the very purpose of OP goodies. All fair in love and war. Any OP can be had one just needs to fight for it, has nothing to do with faction. Mercenaries are not an option for a third faction either, that would be the wrong ideal for what I'm hoping a third faction can bring forth.

So for all to have everything that the others have got there would have to be a system that would grant everyone the same advantages, or things that are equal to each other in game mechanics.

This would be nice to have though I don't see it as meaning that a Utopian or Ghandi way is required in order for it to work. To be neutral in Ryzom means being gimp, to be factionalize means to have a quick access to the roots.

I think a third faction would open the lore up and bring forward a new direction and a final solution to those of us that can actually see the farced of the factions, and bring some balance to some of the issues with choosing neutrality as it is the only third option.


I don't know what the opinions of those on your server are, maybe you can do the same poll and see what they think of the idea?

danolt wrote:All that being said, if I understood the last post by the event manager, we are going to have 4 sub factions added very soon.

That's a good point too; if they're going to focus more on civilization conflict, the point of having a third faction becomes a bit moot.

Though we have 4 civilizations, and since a 3vs1 conflict would be over rather quickly, civilization conflict is likely to end up simply being 2vs2 along faction lines again (Fyros/Zoraï vs Matis/Tryker). The nice thing about a 3-faction system is it's the most resistant against being simplified into 2 sides. Unless one faction is severely skewed, which as Seh says is bound to happen if it has the moral highground.

Ofcourse the devs can always artificially force other conflicts in ("okay, this event is going to be Fyros/Tryker vs Zoraï/Matis"). Which I'd welcome personally; it'd be nice to have some inter-homin conflict wherein faction plays no role at all.

Lastly, please try not to confuse the factional conflict with the outpost wars and guild politics. The factional conflict is hardwired into the lore and the gamemechanics, and is as simple as "either faction A, or faction B, or no faction". The outpost conflicts have been heavily encouraged by game mechanics to be held along faction lines, which has certainly had a profound influence on their current situation of there being a "Karavan alliance" and a "Kami alliance", but in essence it's still a player-created system where each guild can decide their own role, and there's many more roles available than "either side A, or side B, or stay out entirely". If enough guilds wanted it, they could've created a third "Trytonist alliance" to content over outposts with the existing two alliances at any time.

well i must have my head up my arse....there are no real factions in atys...sure there used to be , but that stoped years ago....now its all just allies and the like ...throw the story line out the window..it doesent happen...just get a lifetime sub and all will be just dandy.....ROFL.

Conflict and resolution, is pretty much the basis of every story. I am not championing the cause of PvP. I am asking that the developers create their story arc and let the players resolve it and not deus ex machina an answer be conjuring up a third faction that makes the other two factions obsolete.

Creating a third Homincentric faction at this point in Atysian history would be comparable to creating a WW2 game and having the indigenous New Zealand, "cargo cult", tribes go from hunter-gather to air craft carrier producer in a span of a few months because some players do not want to be an American or Japanese soldier and they want to fight WW2 from the Melanesians perspective and they want to be able to win. It might be a fun, but don't expect the players who thought they were playing a historical WW2 simulation game to be very happy.

helomax wrote:well i must have my head up my arse.

Quelle surprise, you seem to spend most of your time talking through it.

I know this is an unpopular thing to do, but I'm finding myself agreeing and liking Pero's thoughts on the racial angle.

fiach wrote:Quelle surprise, you seem to spend most of your time talking through it.

And big lol.

danolt wrote:Conflict and resolution, is pretty much the basis of every story. I am not championing the cause of PvP. I am asking that the developers create their story arc and let the players resolve it and not deus ex machina an answer be conjuring up a third faction that makes the other two factions obsolete.

I'm not asking for an impropable character to solve the plot either. I want one that will bring more conflics and confusion, one that can stirr things up. The current storyline is basically kill kitins and then kill some more kitins. Not much meaning behind choosing a faction there. Making Trytonist a third faction does not mean the entire server population will jump and join, most people hate Elias and I'm sure Jena will order his head and the elimination of those who join. The plot will thicken it doesn't mean it gets solve. Will the third faction have the higher moral ground, it remains to be seen. Conflict exist within the two current factions today, why would Trytonist be any diferent.

Lastly, please try not to confuse the factional conflict with the outpost wars and guild politics. The factional conflict is hardwired into the lore and the gamemechanics, and is as simple as "either faction A, or faction B, or no faction". The outpost conflicts have been heavily encouraged by game mechanics to be held along faction lines, which has certainly had a profound influence on their current situation of there being a "Karavan alliance" and a "Kami alliance", but in essence it's still a player-created system where each guild can decide their own role, and there's many more roles available than "either side A, or side B, or stay out entirely". If enough guilds wanted it, they could've created a third "Trytonist alliance" to content over outposts with the existing two alliances at any time.

I've never seen the OP wars as faction conflict, it has always been GvG content to me. The fact that it has become a FvF thing is not why I think a third faction is a good idea. Though as you state a new alliance under the trytonist flag can bring some changes to the way things are if some guilds were to adopt the idea even if they were in oposite factions or neutral. Will it solve all the BS and political problems the alliances have now, no, but it can make things more interesting.

I'm done repeating my self. I've already said I am pro third faction. And now pro third alliance, lets bring HOPE back. Haha!!

So, all four existing governments are willing to allow a power that vastly surpasses them to grow with zero interference? Any power that could stand up to one or either of the existing factions could easily take down any of the existing Homin Governments.

And what better way to weaken the factions then destroy the Homin governments that support them, however I am sure all the four racial governments and supporters are way to stupid to see that Elias would be a threat and therefore it makes perfect sense for the new faction to immediately surpass the four governments and directly take on the Gods.

I wonder what a Homin centric view point on the mandatory grafting of masks would be? I am sure the Zoari government would welcome Elias and his supporters without any conflict at all. Just bring in the TP's, Long live the Homin! None of the governments would be the least bit nervous about armies gathering in forces strong enough to face one or both factions, because it is an all Homin army after all, and Homin never harms Homin.

From a story and game play point of view, having the cult of Elias, grow into a faction from competing with the four governments seems inevitable, natural, logical and needed. It brings more conflict, it is realistic, it is gradual, it adds depth, drama and a whole mess of moral dilemma, it is just not the cookie cutter "all things for all people" mold so many players desperately want.

Neutral is only pretty when there is no known target, no bad guy, no identifiable goal. A Homin faction that can rival the Karavan and the Kami should be carved out of the game in blood and tears. It should not be given to the player base. It should be earned by the player base.

So, all four existing governments are willing to allow a power that vastly surpasses them to grow with zero interference? Any power that could stand up to one or either of the existing factions could easily take down any of the existing Homin Governments. And what better way to weaken the factions then destroy the Homin governments that support them, however I am sure all the four racial governments and supporters are way to stupid to see that Elias would be a threat and therefore it makes perfect sense for the new faction to immediately surpass the four governments and directly take on the Gods.

Yes I would imagine Elias backup faction will come on the second ship, the one following Jenas coming, which is right around the corner. Or maybe he can open the portals again and bring back all those homins he helped escape Atys, in return they would be his mighty Army that has been secretly training for decades ready to strike the Karavans and the Kami. This would eliminate any reasons to prolong the idea of a trytonist faction to be none existent and secretive and make the instantaneous transition believable. What will happen next? The four governments will then see that supporting the Karavan is no longer necessary since Elias is here and those that follow the Kami will simply see them as Demons and also join the shiny new faction.

It is ridiculous to think that that some homins will back up a third faction much less any of the governments. They are all very happy as they are now with just the Kami and the Karavan, no worries what so ever. But I can see how this would be seriously damaging to the game because the developers are too dumb to figure a way to bring forward an important character in the lore as a leading NPC that clearly opposes both factions that have named him an enemy.

I wonder what a Homin centric view point on the mandatory grafting of masks would be?

Erm we are all made in Jenas image there should be no masks in the first place… oh wait, the Karavan hide their faces and yet some follow them. I vote for Elias not to have a mask, poor guy has been hiding long enough. And I would love it if the Kami asked me (a Tryker) to wear a mask like the Zorai. I will suffer the pain of putting it on.

I am sure the Zoari government would welcome Elias and his supporters without any conflict at all. Just bring in the TP's, Long live the Homin! None of the governments would be the least bit nervous about armies gathering in forces strong enough to face one or both factions, because it is an all Homin army after all, and Homin never harms Homin.

That’s right, just like they don’t worry about the Kami and Kara alliances fighting in their lands. It will be business as usual. And of course both Kami and Kara will join to eliminate Elias but he will be much too strong for them because he will have twice the many players and NPC and Kitins on his side.

From a story and game play point of view, having the cult of Elias, grow into a faction from competing with the four governments seems inevitable, natural, logical and needed. It brings more conflict, it is realistic, it is gradual, it adds depth, drama and a whole mess of moral dilemma, it is just not the cookie cutter "all things for all people" mold so many players desperately want.

You can be surprise how deep the cookie cutter cuts…I’m for all of the above, word by word, and I have no room for anything else because as always it is about me and what I want.

Neutral is only pretty when there is no known target, no bad guy, no identifiable goal. A Homin faction that can rival the Karavan and the Kami should be carved out of the game in blood and tears. It should not be given to the player base. It should be earned by the player base.

Sorry we already have Elias and me. My ego is just too big and it should be given to me, a ceremony should be done, maybe elevate a statue in my name. Don’t forget I am the Queen of Melons. But seriously I disagree with you in that a third faction can't be forseable and wanted. I still think Trytonist should be a faction and not a secret one.

I’m sure the developers can do it if they consider it, it’s not like the secret sect isn’t already part of the lore, and I don’t think they are that dumb. But hey four years of no marketing and debt, I’m starting to have some doubt. Too much has been left untouched and we need something more than just Kitin events, and lifetime membership deals.

Long live the Homin AND Trixie!