My thoughts on what Ryzom will become

[zarozina]

A side-effect of this is that anyone claiming to be older than 38 is clearly lying about their age.

LMAO Someone has been reading too much Douglas Adams ;D

/signed An Honest 39 year old

[arfindel]

Don't worry Ffy, on this logic if Konrad Zuse by any chance had been lurking here he would be delighted to find out he suddenly lost ... 60 years teehee

[thlau]

NeL engine features

Ryzom was built using Nevrax's NeL engine. Its features include:

* Dynamic model degradation: Model quality and polygon count lowers as more entities appear on the screen, allowing several hundred entities rendered at once for massive combats. Fully customizable settings allow this feature to improve as hardware does.
* Dynamic terrain degradation: Terrain polygon complexity lowers as the maximum polygon count is approached.

So, if you want "better" models in fights, should they throw the engine overboard, to reduce the number of present players?

CU
Acridiel

I don't think they shouldn't throw the engine over board. The rendering engine might have several disadvantages, but the dynamic degradation modes - how ugly they may appear to some - is one of the strength of Ryzom. This is the very point where all contemporary MMORPGs I played lately struggle. Vanguard and Tabula Rasa massively reduced the number of polygons of all MOBs to counter lag that is caused during mass battles. But when I speak here of mass battles I think about 30-50 combatants, not what we saw during the big outpost battles or invasions.

And when someone wants better rendered models today it should be possible to render more that the currently 8 models at the highest resolution. I think the system I build to be able to run AoC should be able to handle that easily.

One limitation that the current engine has, which is a problem in my opinion, is that it is only possible to render 256 movable objects. Which is already problematic with the new Lixie encounter, since each mine is a MOB and that way degrades the visible area.

[acridiel]

I don't think they shouldn't throw the engine over board. The rendering engine might have several disadvantages, but the dynamic degradation modes - how ugly they may appear to some - is one of the strength of Ryzom. This is the very point where all contemporary MMORPGs I played lately struggle. Vanguard and Tabula Rasa massively reduced the number of polygons of all MOBs to counter lag that is caused during mass battles. But when I speak here of mass battles I think about 30-50 combatants, not what we saw during the big outpost battles or invasions.

And when someone wants better rendered models today it should be possible to render more that the currently 8 models at the highest resolution. I think the system I build to be able to run AoC should be able to handle that easily.

One limitation that the current engine has, which is a problem in my opinion, is that it is only possible to render 256 movable objects. Which is already problematic with the new Lixie encounter, since each mine is a MOB and that way degrades the visible area.

Yeah true, but remember. It works and it works fine if your system is up to it.
Of curse, being over 4 years old, the RAID engine could use an overhaul to accommodate current systems capabilities, but that again would cost LOTS of Dev time and probably manpower to be better used on other more pressing issues, don´t you think?
(appart from it probably needing another "facelift" in about two years time, when the next generation of processors and such hits our homes.)

Simply demanding the new Devs are to be pulling a new and improved engine and whatnot simply from their collective hats is simply as silly a notion as it sounds. All that surely can be accomplished, but sadly not by the flourish of some magic USB wand, but by hard work on the Devs part.
Witch in turn needs time.
Witch in turn costs a considerable amount of money to buy from the devs
Witch needs proper advertisement and so on...
Its a pretty vicious circle, but it can not be helped.

Even Devs who rule whole digital Kingoms if not worlds, are in the end simple people like you and me, who need their time to do things properly.
We´ve all seen what becomes of it if its thrown before the players horde unfinished and unpolished.

So patience young Padawan.
All will hopefully come in its due time.
No matter how many people are demanding its immediate implementation.

At the moment we´re just dreaming of what could be made possible by our new benefactors. What they´ll do and how they´ll do it in the end is completely up to them and probably only marginally influenced by our posts.

We can go on pouring our hopes and fears into these threads.
Someone up there reading them and actually taking note of them and from them is an entirely different matter.

So, let´s be patient and keep dreaming

CU
Acridiel

[sx4rlet]

- Go and have a look to the pvp thread now. The teams are broken. The lag in wars unbearable. A ton of skills are unusable (ask the meleers), the animation in close combat poor. More important the faction system is too complicated for the average WoW player who needs pvp in a 1/0 equation. What chance would you give a pvp dedicated Ryzom against the new modern AoC? Leave alone the other games. Ancient SWG was much better at it whatever disbalanced it was.

Couple of days ago I read on mmorpg a post from somebody saying PvP was great in Ryzom. This might be true for a lvl 250 in 2 skills, but for me (who hasnt even has a lvl 200 skill) it sucked like hell... The PvP I have been involved in the last years was always better then I've seen in Ryzom.
(And no, I dont mean nerfing any classes, I just mean it sux not being able to do anything untill near lvl 250.... yes yes... you can heal, but if you really only want somebody to heal, get a 2nd accound and macro him to heal you)

Faa's post is really good. It shows the points needs to be adressed if the game wants to survive.

It's so much more then just advertisement. Although I really like(d) the game, some parts are really lacking, and it's more then just get people to try it out, you want players to stay.

----------

personally, as new owner, i would make a english, french, german (and spanish) chat channel, then merge all servers and see what players would still be around. (expecting all former players to return is a dream) And then see what's the income and decide how many extra dev's i wanted to hire...

[acridiel]

Well, trouble here is that there will always be Players with "higher levels than you", or "the same high levels as you".
I mean, sooner or later each levelcap will be reached by a huge amount of players and these will always be stronger in PvP than those with lower levels.
Thats an unshakable fact.

So Sx4rlet, what´s your idea to make it better?
Do you have any ideas on how this problem could be solved?
Just stating X is ****, so something about it simply won´t help.

I´m no PvP Player so I´ve got zero experience to share or draw from to give suggestions in this direction.
Why don´t you and other PvP enthusiasts do it?
I think that´s what the "PvP" thread is all about, isn´t it?
Does anyone know how to better "balance" PvP to make it a pastime involving more than just the highest level players?
Any suggestions? Please write them down in the appropriate thread, for our new owners benefit. What´s so hard about that?

CU
Acridiel

Edit: And NO! I don´t want to start another stupid argument about whether PvP or RP is the only content worth playing!
They´re both equal part of the Game, accept it please.

[iphdrunk]

Why don´t you and other PvP enthusiasts do it?
I think that´s what the "PvP" thread is all about, isn´t it?
Does anyone know how to better "balance" PvP to make it a pastime involving more than just the highest level players?

I know it's not going to be a constructive post, but I will rant a bit (and throw in the mix an executive summary too ): let me add that we did it, and we (players) have been giving PvP feedback for ages. In my humble case and contribution, together with a few friends of mine that also used to be quite hardcore PvP players (diablos and the like). It was frustrating. We submitted tickets, wrote forums posts, spent hours tweaking and trying, discussing, etc. The PvP discussions started in FBT, with the first very preliminary duel mockups -- where you could even kill yourself using vamp - , and so on...

I used to like PvP (1-on-1 a lot) but I just forget it (I even goofed around with imho the most gifted PvP playes around, Sinful, Kye, Themac, etc. to name a few -- there are plenty more). But I always thought that PvP was added like an "afterthought" and never actually done well.

I could elaborate a bit, but (sorry to be pessimistic) the main conclusion -- at least for me -- is: Ryzom PvP is bad "by design" (let me also be specific: basically 1-on-1 PvP, mass PvP is another thing) and to improve it would require a major overhaul affecting most, if not all, game mechanic aspects -- including PvE -- and a major rebalance due to the snow ball effect and inter-dependencies that could end up being a disaster (see also past experiences and hacks such as damage divided / 2 and so o) -- and in my humble opinion, the Ms. Mulligan "Nevrax PvP strike team" must have arrived to the same conclusion, given their outputs..... From a more optimistic point of view, "Ryzom PvP has been designed for mass-battles.

By design, given the automatic target and "the target and click" Ryzom approach, without considering things as movement, dynamic targetting and timing, distance of caster to the target, impact of distance of the target to the center of the AoE... The "pendulus" effect of resistances, the excessive importance of levels and gear (the most skilled PvPer cannot win against a slow monkey that has been trained to click on the '6' action if the skilled PvPer is like 20+ levels below). In summary, the uttermost lack of room for strategy, other than stanza tunning and right usage of "AfterDodge" and the like actions. The frustrating factor of randomness. The unbalanced effect of affliction spells (--> try 200 duels, it doesn't mind if you are 250 in OA and DA, you'd rather just nuke nuke nuke). It is almost so automated that a computer could just "play one player against each other" and have a deterministic result given all the inputs. The outcome of a PvP fight is reduced to "get the first click", all factors equal.

Any suggestions? Please write them down in the appropriate thread, for our new owners benefit. What´s so hard about that?

it's hard to write them again and again and again, and be systematically ignored (Reasonably ignored, I may add... due to the huge task it would be). New owners? yes, but old forums, tell the owners to use the "search" button, or to remove the dust from the IG tickets and suggestions -- although they may not be that new after all...--

A bit bitter, (** hugs Acri **, nothing agains you, of course my friend!
Ani

[boinged]

Ani: I totally agree about the deterministic output. PVP in Ryzom is both the best (large OP battles) and the worst (as already mentioned).

Here's my rant about the current state and future of the game:


Since the relaunch, we've had a basic placeholder screen that was probably a google images screenshot and then a fan-created washing-machine.

The new guys either don't have a marketing department or they should get rid of them. If the full might of Blizzard marketing was behind this game then maybe, just maybe, they might regain enough subs to break even.

To address the comments about the players being out there already - if they don't know about this game then they never will. It's not like every EQ2 and L2 player is playing in a vacuum. Ryzom is a very niche game with a limited audience.

For those that have been around long enough to remember, the original Nevrax marketing was plenty. There was a massive buzz at the launch which faded quickly, especially after easymode was nerfed. This game was highly promoted at mmorpg.com etc., by Nevrax and fans alike. It's just that WoW, with its mainstream gameplay, came along shortly after and destroyed it.

AoC and WAR have decent advertising campaigns. I hope Spiderweb have the same budget but I've seen no evidence of it yet. There's not going to be a mass-market saturation campaign. The best that can be hoped for is a free relaunch with banner ads such as Maple Story is doing right now.

Here's a game relaunch for comparison:

Jumpgate (Jumpgate:Evolution). The past year has basically been marketing. I've had so many news emails and nothing to show for it - all buildup. MMORPG.COM is all over it. Even these guys are still amateurs compared to WAR!

Ryzom: nothing. They didn't even email me to announce the site was back. I only know about this because I check yubovision occasionally. The entire subscriber base is now composed of people that check that particular fansite, and word of mouth.

Spiderweb need to break from the mold, ruffle a few feathers and try something new. If they don't then the fan forums will be all that remain.

[iceaxe68]

To address the comments about the players being out there already - if they don't know about this game then they never will. It's not like every EQ2 and L2 player is playing in a vacuum. Ryzom is a very niche game with a limited audience.

Although you make some very good points, I think that the largest potential audience is not currently playing EQ2 or L2 or anything similar. Personally, I wasn't playing anything before Ryzom.

Niche, yes. But a niche with lots of potential if enough people find it and try it.

If I were running the show (heaven forbid) I'd get hard stats on the current diehards, and find trends about where to find more like us. I suspect MMORPG.com is not the best place.

[sidusar]

(And no, I dont mean nerfing any classes, I just mean it sux not being able to do anything untill near lvl 250.... yes yes... you can heal, but if you really only want somebody to heal, get a 2nd accound and macro him to heal you)

This is an inherent problem in the system of levels though. I've yet to see one MMORPG where you have any real chance at defeating a character that's much higher level than you.

The only way to amend this problem is with a similar system as they have in CoH, that can make you 'pretend' you're a different level under certain conditions. One possibility to apply this in Ryzom: When in a level 0-50 zone, all skills are capped at level 50. Another possibility: When fighting for a level 250 outpost, a skill of your choice 'acts' like it's 250 for the duration of the battle.

Even then the one with the better gear is probably going to win, but it at least gives you a chance.

It is almost so automated that a computer could just "play one player against each other" and have a deterministic result given all the inputs. The outcome of a PvP fight is reduced to "get the first click", all factors equal.

I must agree with Ani's assessment here being the real major problem in Ryzom PvP. A 1-vs-1 fight is pretty much already over before it's started. Once it's decided which skills, levels, equipment and stanzas both sides are going to use, then the rest is (at best) 20% player skill and 80% "who does the random number generator favor today?"

At times PvP in Ryzom felt like playing a game such as Starcraft, but only controlling one single unit. You click who you want your unit to attack and hope for the best.

The PvP only gets a little interesting if you have multiple skills at a level that makes them feasible to use (which usually means: multiple skills at 250). Then you can pick and choose which one is going to work best against what your opponent is currently using. It gets significantly more interesting if the PvP is group-vs-group, because that's when strategy starts becoming important. You're still spamming the same heal or attack over and over, but at least you have to constantly decide who the best target to heal or attack is.

In the average outpost battle I'd have to constantly decide where to stand, when to attack and when to heal, who to attack or heal, and when to shoot up those precious few autolauncher ammo my bag could hold. But only near the end when even I had multiple 250s. At the beginning of the outpost era I was pretty much only usefull for healing and shooting affy enchants.

Ofcourse, the inherent problem with group-vs-group PvP is that no matter how well you do, significantly superior numbers always win. So in the end it's only slightly less 'over before it's started' than a duel.