Understanding each other calmly (Neutrals, Kami, Karavan)

[sehracii]

You'd worship, follow, fight and be willing to die for something you don't fully like or believe in? I think following your own beliefs is better then following something you don't like because you dislike the other offical alternative a bit more.

The point is you have to take the bad with the good if you want the benefits. If you want pure freedom of your own beliefs, go right ahead, but don't expect benefits while you're bucking the system.

A "faction" of any sort that had equal benefits without lore pitfalls would be unbalanced.

[grimjim]

The point is you have to take the bad with the good if you want the benefits. If you want pure freedom of your own beliefs, go right ahead, but don't expect benefits while you're bucking the system.

...or extra penalties.

[aardnebb]

So I d like you Neutrals to explain to me why you decided to stay Neutral ;
- What does it add to your RP stance ?

Zahan initially was a bit of a playboy and a joker, the other Zorai (representing the staid, respectable kami religion) didnt really take that too kindly.

He came to the mainland just in time for the Almati woods section of Episode 2. After seeing the behaviour of certain homins on both sides he decided that extreme faith in any religion obviously makes you a psychotic with no sense of honour. (Please note, this may not be true, but it's certainly how it _looks_ to a newbie playing the game for less than a week with under 300hp getting nuked for 3k damage).

Later interactions with homins on both sides have mellowed that view somewhat, but he still considers any extremist a potential timebomb. On the contrary, Samsara only kill after carefully considering a potential contract for its impact on their personal ethics, or in self defence. Better a logical choice than a raging ball of fanatacism. And if you can make a profit out of it, all the better...

- How come you feel like you can only go this way ?

Frankly the Kami and the Karavan have their own agenda. Zahan does not understand it and he doubts any homin does. Chosing someone to support you do not fully understand is gonna get you in trouble sooner or later...

Neither side are interested in the homins that support them, when was the last time you saw Kami OR Karavan guardians defending their followers? They let you bleed and die, only to restore you again as puppets in an endless game of chess.

Mercenaries chose when and where to fight, and ask the important question... "Whats it worth?"

- Had the lore have any impact on your decision ?

Yes, I have studied the background of the game intensively. Also, I regard OUR actions as players, the behaviour of guilds and individuals as PART of the living Lore of Atys.

So if I ask what guild you are when you try to hire me, it means I dont know _you_ as an individual well enough to make a decision, so I am gonna see what kinda people you hang out with by choice...

[ashling]

Do you agree 100% with everything your family/friends believe in?

No I don't but then I'd tell them when I think they are doing something wrong and I wouldn't help them do it.

Also there is no death, combat is like playing a full contact sport. Do you have to have a moral reason to play a pickup game of basketball?

That's nice but neutral is an option in this game.

Also morals do play a part even in full contact sports. For example is is ok to use performace enhanceing drugs? Is it ok to purposfully try and injure another player?

It's kinda sounding to me that you don't understand or accept roleplaying or how the lore might put you off both sides.

I play with much more focus against my friends and family then I do strangers.

Fair enough. I don't see why you mention it though?

[karmelit]

I was neutral a short time because of the temple wars. The reason was that I had always ranked my friends and guild higher than the factions. As others have mentioned, the faction stand didn't matter much in those days.

I do not know if neutrals today choose neutrality in part because of this issue, but I imagine it may.

Things have cooled down a bit again and it is easier to make friends again, across faction beliefs

[ashling]

The point is you have to take the bad with the good if you want the benefits. If you want pure freedom of your own beliefs, go right ahead, but don't expect benefits while you're bucking the system.

A "faction" of any sort that had equal benefits without lore pitfalls would be unbalanced.

I don't expect or want the benefits from a group I don't like but what part of this thread is about wanting the benefits? Unless I'm missing something it's just about explaining why your a neutral.

[sprite]

I'm going to try and be calm and polite here, so I apologise if I offend anyone in the process

You'd worship, follow, fight and be willing to die for something you don't fully like or believe in?

"Seperating IC morals from OOC ones", "Lesser of two evils", etc are all phrases that come to mind - I think most people who are familiar with the lore of the game know full well that both sides have their bad parts, but they don't let that get in the way of letting their character follow the higher powers.

(here comes the "spriteh trying really hard to be polite while still continuing a discussion on neutrality and faction" bit)

No.
Just 'space'.
It doesn't need to be that well defined, it just needs room for people to express themselves.

EDIT: Think of it as an ideological Ryzom Ring.

So basically you want to be able to express yourself inside a faction that is neither kamist nor karavaneer? How would you introduce a coherent third faction that had the same failings as the other two (as mrshad said, and I agree, any future third faction should be on the same standing as the other two with regards to having their darkside - nothing is perfect either in this world or on Atys) without making the failings cause you or anyone else reject them and stay neutral, thus perpetuating discussions like those we have had recently? Even setting that aside, as the current "neutral" party is so diverse, there's no way you would please everyone - how would it be possible to give these "3rd way" followers the perks that you say neutrals are unfairly denied (not contesting that they're denied them, and you know my views on the "unfair" part; its not the subject of this thread so lets not get into it) while still allowing everyone who joined said faction complete freedom to express themselves.

I guess basically what it boils down to is that any future "3rd way" (thanks for the term Neun ) would have to fulfill these points and more, and this is only going by jyudas' and mrshad's views and my (un?)common sense:
1) Allow people a viable alternative to the Kami and Karavan due to ideological differences (viable being defined as giving something of equal value to what the K's get while giving up an equal amount as the K's do)
2) Allow all members of this 3rd faction a means to express their own moral/political/whatever views (characters' views, not players' views)
3) Have a clearly defined aim/standpoint/something. You can't make it a faction if it doesn't have a definition.
4) Still have the same "fallibility" as the current two choices.
5) Not be the "perfect choice" - if it were "perfect" then it would make following the two existing factions pointless in gameplay terms (referring to the fact that while lore is important, it shouldn't be the only consideration when judging game mechanics)

In my view, the problems are thus:
2) and 3) are almost mutually exclusive - creating a defined group that encompasses all viewpoints is nearly impossible so someone would be p*ssed off by the new faction and we'd get these threads again.
1) and 4) have a similar problem - how do you make a faction that appeals to people who object to the tenets/actions of the Kami and Karavan while still making it have the same/similiar failings?
5) is really an extension of 1) and 4) - you have to lose something to gain something, and you can't keep the moral superiority without having some kind of failing.

Examples:
While gaining access to all TPs might be good for the followers of the faction, it makes being kami/kara kind of pointless.
When last seen, Elias Tryton was in the Deep Roots mad as a hatter; if the new faction was Trytonist then something would have to be made of his dark background, as well as the fact that he seems to advocate continuing balanced war rather than creating peace ((Hey, I'll have to remember that one))

And I just noticed this seems to be slightly off topic as its about what a theoretical 3rd faction would have to be, instead of what makes people stay neutral currently I'd be happy to take this post from where I quoted Jy downwards to another thread if you want Moyaku

EDIT:

Neither side are interested in the homins that support them, when was the last time you saw Kami OR Karavan guardians defending their followers?

The last time I ran screaming like a little girl to the Karavan TP so that I didn't get eaten by a disgruntled mob *shrug*

[ashling]

"Seperating IC morals from OOC ones", "Lesser of two evils", etc are all phrases that come to mind - I think most people who are familiar with the lore of the game know full well that both sides have their bad parts, but they don't let that get in the way of letting their character follow the higher powers.

I'm not trying to bash or critise anyones choice of faction and I'm not actuelly a roleplayer but I think a dislike of both is a fair and understandible reason for being neutral in game and following your own morals. I also think joining what is basicaly a religion because you think it is the 'lesser of two evils' if a pretty poor reason. That sounds like a neutral that will fight againts one side more then the other to me

[sprite]

I think a dislike of both is a fair and understandible reason for being neutral in game and following your own morals.

I never said it wasn't, but you asked and I answered

I also think joining what is basicaly a religion because you think it is the 'lesser of two evils' if a pretty poor reason.

What the player does (ie "pick the lesser of two evils" or whatever) and what the character does (ie "follow the mighty guardians of justice working tirelessly to rid the world of the evil forces of destruction") can be two different things; just because I can see that they both have a darkside doesn't necessarily mean my character can. If my character believed what I believe then I would'nt be able to be kara, kami, or neutral The fact that some neutrals stay neutral because they (as humans) believe kami and kara both suck is fine with me, just as is karavaneers following the karavan even tho they (as humans) think the kami and kara both suck.

[mithur]

I also think joining what is basicaly a religion because you think it is the 'lesser of two evils' if a pretty poor reason.

Don't see all things in black and white. A lot of people along the eras has embraced allergiancer with a religious background different to their, only because they think that was the rigth group, or only their group of choice.

Can be an atheist btween the kara? Yes! Why not? A lot of them, sureliy. Follow the rites, as many people does, and joint the faction. Is easy. Jena doesn't come to test the faith of their followers, but the kami test their strong every day.

The same for the kami, of course.

My own PC is, basically, Atheist. But he believes that not join a group is a coward acctitude that only makes longer the war whtch is retarding the reconstruction of our land, so they try to make win one side, one faction.

For him Jena could be a Myth, but the Karavan are real, and his faction of choice. He doesn't care of deities, gods, and jmiracles; he cares about his Kami enemies, the kippe desolating his lands and the damn gingos trying to kill him.