Ryzom

marct wrote:(Keep smiling everyone it IS a game.)

OOC: Good point. ^_^

As I wade through this thread, I notice 2 things:

1. An awful lot of criticism of Pero's letter to Trykers by non-Trykers. Almost all of which are either Kami or neutral. I guess as a Tryker, I have to say that I don't see much in any of your criticisms that I find very compelling.

2. Most of the commenters have missed one of Pero's key points here by focusing on the xp cats and the statement about preparing for war:

danolt wrote:The light is fading from the Lakelands. Jena's influence weakens. It is not just the power of Ma-Duk, it is the growing desire to forget consequences and responsibilities. Trykers are forgetting their past, they are forgetting that we are not from Atys. They are forgetting that we are here for a purpose and in forgetting, risk all.
...
Trykers use catalyzers daily, they respawn daily, they teleport daily. When do you thank Jena? The gifts of the Goddess have become trivial. Eternal life in the lake lands is TRIVIAL!

boinged wrote:Don't be Kami or Karavan. Be homin: be Neutral.

Interesting advice, but I seriously doubt you takes your own advice.

1. The catalyzers do not come to us by our own efforts alone. They are available because of the drills given to us by the Karavan or Kami. Even the outposts themselves are made available by the gods. Yes, we had to fight for them to prove our ability to hold them. But we didn't build them.
2. Respawning isn't something you do by your own will. It is a gift given to you by the gods.
3. Teleporting is a service provided by the servants of the gods. We don't have that ability by ourselves. (If we did, I would have levelled the teleporter maintenance tree right now and activated those inactive tp's a long time ago.)

We owe our very lives on Atys to the Gods and we treat them as if they were irrelevant. If you honestly believe you should reject both Karavan and Kami, then put your money where your mouth is: Stop using their services. No more catalyzers. No more magic. No more teleporting. And when you die, you're dead. Your friends can throw a funeral if they like, but you're done.

This is the part that struck a very real chord in my Tryker heart when I read Pero's note. We owe our lives and our allegience to the gods that give us life every day. The gods tend to stay in the background until they are needed and it has caused us to take them for granted.

boinged wrote:... the less we have to fear from the lunatic zealots who want to stifle free-will.

There was nothing in Pero's letter that justified this kind of smear. I am not a "lunatic zealot who wants to stifle free-will". Nor do I think Pero is. I am however concerned that we as a people have lost our way by taking our Goddess for granted.

When a Karavan aligned Tryker says this, homins everywhere come out of the woodwork to smear him as a zealot. And most of those homins aren't even Trykers.

Pero noted that we need to be ready for war. And we do. Both war with the Kitins as well as the potential for war with the Kamists. Is being ready for war the same as wanting war? No. But I fear those dice may already be cast. And if war comes, a divided Tryker people will fall before a united foe. I'm sure many of you concerned Kamists will promise never to invade our lands, but when Ma-Duk tells you that you must protect Atys from Karavan influence and the Karavan remain in Aeden Aqueous, will you really tell him "no"? I'm not sure we can take that chance.

These are the messages I took from his letter. And I believe he is right.

To all those that still doubt our neutrality there's nothing more I can say except that you should lay off smoking the izam bone. That stuff rots your brain.

It's true that a lot of people, including ourselves, turned up to defend The Dragonblades from the unheard of "Omega X" guild. Had they been attacked by a well-known Kami guild, the equivalent of CoM who attacked us for no known reason, then I'm sure there would have been a nice Karavan turnout. I don't think anyone would have accused OotD for being Karavan-aligned if this were the case. Incidently, we would have turned up to defend our Neutral-faction comrades regardless.

It's also true that the Kami and Karavan paved the way for us to drill the crust for crystals. Well done to them, they empowered us homins to take matters into our own hands. We are the gods of this planet, not them - a point that they will soon realise as more and more people join the true faction. They might have denied us teleporter access to certain areas but they've made a concession and granted it to us in the Nexus - they recognise our power. As long as we've got the dapper, they'll keep on selling the tickets - they don't seem so fussy about fame when hard cash is involved. They'll even respawn us without us performing archaic rites to prove ourselves. So why be a sucker to the false gods?

By writing a letter urging the neutral-by-birthright Tryker to pick a side Pero is becoming a zealot I'm very sorry to say. The Tryker should be wary of the Kami loyalists biding their time, but aligning with the Karavan faction will only lead to all-out war. Why not use the Tryker ingenuity I hear about but never seem to see these days and choose the smart alternative.

Don't be Karavan, don't be Kami. Get off your knees - be Neutral.

Most of your last post, Rashan, is opinion and you're more than entitled to it. I disagree, obviously, but we'll leave it at that. But, I would like to correct one little thing:

boinged wrote:By writing a letter urging the neutral-by-birthright Tryker to pick a side Pero ....

The Actual Lore wrote:What is our faith ?
Jena is our Goddess, she is the Mother of Creation. Many of our customs are centered around her worship. There's Thanksgiving Day, for example, it falls on the winter solstice to symbolize the return of light after the dark years that followed the Great Swarming. So that it doesn't happen again, we must live by her Law which is handed down to us by her faithful disciples, the Karavan. They watch over us and protect us from Kami possession. Remember, young homin, as long as you do as you're told and don't ruffle 'em, you too will be able to learn to wield their technology.

http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_tryker_being&parent=lore_races_tryker

The phrase "Neutral by birthright" really doesn't seem to fit the lore as I read it. Granted, we've never been as serious about our religion as the Matis or the Zorai, but it is our religion historically. The purpose of some of my past comments (and, I suspect, Pero's original posting) is to remind my brethren of that fact.

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20645

Thank you for a Fyros perspective on our history, but to be perfectly honest, I'm more interested in some more Tryker perspective on this matter. (and to those that don't sign their ingame names and/or races, please do. It would help me to understand the RP motivations of those responding)

(and to those that are criticizing the Samsara for their neutrality or lack thereof - well, I'm not arguing one way or the other, but that tangent is veering this thread way off topic. Somewhere, there's another thread dedicated to that entire debate and I'm sure Kos and Rashan would love to hear more comments on that subject in that thread... well, probably not. They do sound a little tired of it.)

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21083

Pero, if you feel my comments don't represent your point of view accurately, please feel free to correct me. I join in here because you seem to be saying much of what I've been feeling.

Getting ready of handing next choice morsel out of lakelands to your Matisian overlords, Pero - And trying to find sympathy and justification for the action? One hate campaign already managed to drive a Tryker guild homeless and your speech seems to incline that another one is starting...

oldmess wrote: ...I'm more interested in some more Tryker perspective on this matter. (and to those that don't sign their ingame names and/or races, please do. It would help me to understand the RP motivations of those responding)
.

The problem is, you can't take the quote about us worshiping Jena in isolation, you have to read the rest of the lore as well;

What is our faith ? Jena is our Goddess, she is the Mother of Creation....

Makes it seem straightforward. But we also have this;

...Oh, and by the way, keep it under your bonnet but some say that Elias is none other than the husband of Jena, which makes him the holy Father, but don't mention it to the Karavan!

Which makes it plain that we regard Elias Tryton as equal to (or potentially equal to) Jena, but also that we don't have much obedience to the Karavan. Which is reinforced by this;

How they see the Karavan
The Trykers consider the Karavan as faithful servants of Jena who stand watch over hominkind and assure their security in case the dragon rises or any other nefarious entity menaces... ...many Trykers treat the Karavan more as overlords not to ruffle than a religious entity...

And to make life even more difficult we have this about the Corsairs;

...The authorities of Fairhaven have no interest in curbing the Corsairs' keenness for action, and leave them a loose rein. They are, after all, loyal partisans trained to play a preponderant role in warfare. Many a Tryker has been a Corsair in his or her younger days in order to learn the art of combat, the most illustrious being Still Wyler, the great Governor...

And the Corsairs are a Kami allied tribe, which undermines a lot of what the rest of the lore says about how we regard the Kami. ie;

The Kamis : They are an evil blight, they try to blow your mind with their magic just to possess you. They ought to be stamped out.

It is difficult to justify that this is simultaneously true; that we want to stamp out the Kami AND that we can coexist with the Corsairs to the extent that "many" Trykers join the Corsairs in their youth, including our current leader. If we really thought that the Kami had the power to possess homins for their own evil ends, we would hardly have elected someone who used to have such a close association with them.
The only way I can think of is if the desire to "stamp them out" is what we tell the Karavan to keep them sweet, and not what most Trykers really want.
It is probably true that most of us don't worship them, and don't regard them as important as Jena and Tryton, but in practice most Trykers probably operate on a "live and let live" basis; if they don't bother us, we don't bother them.

So if you want to unite the Trykers around a single position, trying to do it over a "pro-Jena/anti-Kami" one is a mistake.

OK then, ignoring the pointless debates about neutrality, I'll address the original post.

danolt wrote:It is Jena that gifts us with rebirth, Ma-duk does not give the Kami followers eternal life by choice, it is his "balance". He works to corrupt all of our souls, and he is doing it.

Our faith was tested as we worked to construct the temples. The Goddess met us halfway and finished that task. Then she went a step further. Jena's servants gave us the drill, forcing Ma-duk to give his minions the bore for "balance".

Can you prove these 2 seemingly inaccurate statements? Where in the lore or the saga does it say that the karavan gave their followers respawns first? Where does it say the Kami then followed suit? I'd love to read this because I feel I have missed something in my knowledge of Atys. Same goes for the drills. Where does it say who gave them first? I really must be missing something, so please enlighten me.

oldmess wrote:The phrase "Neutral by birthright" really doesn't seem to fit the lore as I read it. Granted, we've never been as serious about our religion as the Matis or the Zorai, but it is our religion historically. The purpose of some of my past comments (and, I suspect, Pero's original posting) is to remind my brethren of that fact.

The very page you linked to says:

"If you believe in a world without tyranny or intolerence, with neither master nor slaves, come help us build it !"

That sounds like Neutral to me.

My suggestion for a single position for Trykers to unite around would be a defensive Tryker alliance similar to the Guardians Alliance in the desert - ie all Tryker guilds, whether Kami, Karavan and neutral. You could also use this to trade OP produce to the benefit of Tryker guilds without OPs.

turjake wrote:Getting ready of handing next choice morsel out of lakelands to your Matisian overlords, Pero - And trying to find sympathy and justification for the action? One hate campaign already managed to drive a Tryker guild homeless and your speech seems to incline that another one is starting...

Your accusation is false, Lwiz. Aedan Artisans withdrew its declaration of war on the Band of the Hawks and I very publically apologized. The cost of that withdrawal has been large, to myself and all of Aedan Artisans. We did not redeclare on the Band of the Hawks. OmegaV did not consult AA about declaring on Whirling. They did not ask our permission or inform us at all. We were not members of any Matis alliance.

riveit wrote:...We were not members of any Matis alliance.

Glad to hear it. But then why were your members taking part in an attack on a neutral guilds' OP in Fyros lands with a load of Karavan/Matis guilds? Did you have something personal against us?