Spires for Neutrals – a modest proposal

[drcole22]

Looks like our 'Neutral' friend has something to say...

http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19970

[gwythion]

FvF will not only be Kami vs. Karavan but also civilization vs. civilization. If the Matis try and enslave the Tryker again, then neither Zorai nor Fyros could tp into forest or lakelands zones with spires. And even with Kami vs. Karavan a player could be nominally Kami aligned but anti-PvP and thus would be denied access to many zones.

Note: This isn't D&D, it's B5. One season it's Narn vs. Centari and the next it's the Vorlons vs. Shadows. Maybe by chapter 4 we can get to regime change.

The plan as proposed is that you can be neutral in race and/or cult. The anti-PvP is a red herring in my opinion. People will in future get the choice of what their alignment will be so you will be allowed to claim you are a neutral party. People will no longer be nominally be anything they will have chosen. This is something that you cannot do at the moment, you are forced into being either Karavan or Kami based on your fame.

You seem to be suggesting that those that align themselves with a particular faction and are anti-PvP (presumably with the PvP flag off) should be allowed access to any tp by some mechanism. I dont think that will get off the ground as it will cause too many issues re invulnerable spies. Or have I misunderstood you.

In the case of race type wars as opposed to cult I think that the same arguement applies. Things just get slightly more complex. So in your example the opposing factions are Tryker and Matis. This then has two probable options either the Zorai and Fyros are aligned with one side or the other or they are not. If they are not aligned then they are not in an opposing faction and should therefore get access to the tps. If they are aligned then they should not get access to the tps of the opposing faction. Given that the tps are run by the Kami and Karavan then they might well ignore a race faction war entirely, depending on their mood.

[thurgond]

If they are not aligned then they are not in an opposing faction and should therefore get access to the tps.

This isn't what the Developers say:

Once the spire in place, the region is considered as belonging to the faction owning the spire. Active altars and TP tickets in the region are only those of the faction who took control over that region. ... It is possible to use TP tickets in neutral areas, areas controlled by one’s faction, or in capitals.

Under the proposed system, the opposing faction and any neutrals (in the case of civilization vs. civilization) would get tp rights.

[carrie]

Tryton is true neutral... as in a 'balancing' force. His actions fit perfectly. Anyway Just my 2 cents.

-Vanand

Based on your post then, I would argue that neutrals should have been able to actually help both sides during the last event. Tryton said we should, yet the faction flags based on fame made that impossible without first going and doing countless quests first to change one's fame. If I entered the old lands I was marked as Karavan no matter whom I actually followed. Thus I could not serve as a "balancing" force.

Now if they'd given us a way to kill kami tolerance I could have done something that actually had effect on both sides.

[carrie]

Neutrals are ones who do not side with any party in a war or dispute. If you give them a task in the war they are no longer neutral.
I'm not apposed to having a third faction but it would not be called Neutrality.
I also do not see Tryton as being neutral because be got Homins involved in the war, if he was truly neutral he would tell Homins to stay out of the war and try to go about their lives as best they could.

I agree, Neva.

This thread just shows how many varying opinions there are on the meaning of neutrality. Making a neutral stance even more challenging.

[gwythion]

This isn't what the Developers say:
Under the proposed system, the opposing faction and any neutrals (in the case of civilization vs. civilization) would get tp rights.

All I can say is that is not how I read the document. I presume you are refering to the same one I am:

http://www.ryzom.com/?page=news&id=1456

It obviously needs clarification.

The key lines are:
"It is impossible to use TP tickets when their destination is an area owned by an opposing faction.

It is possible to use TP tickets in neutral areas, areas controlled by one’s faction, or in capitals."

The first statement means that in your Tryker v's Matis scenario that they would not (with the exception of capitals) be able to tp to each others lands.

The second statement says that all people will be able to access certain tps no matter what.

This leaves a gap. The non-opposing but not aligned factions, e.g. neutral and possibly in our example Fyros and Zorai, it does not state that they cannot use the tps. If they had intended for neutrals to not gain access they could have been made clear by making the first statement read:

"It is impossible to use TP tickets when their destination is an area owned by another faction."

As it stands the document does not cover the concept of allied factions so anything about that would be pure conjecture.

[achaz]

Based on your post then, I would argue that neutrals should have been able to actually help both sides during the last event. Tryton said we should, yet the faction flags based on fame made that impossible without first going and doing countless quests first to change one's fame. If I entered the old lands I was marked as Karavan no matter whom I actually followed. Thus I could not serve as a "balancing" force.

Raising kami fame lowers karavan and raising karavan lowers kami.. my kara fame is 65 and my kami fame is -65. So if I were to run enough kami missions at some point my fame would hit a point where it was 0/0 or near -I know of several people that have fame that could easy swing either kami or karavan- that would be neutral. From there I could join either side with a negligible amount of work. Being in a guild with very high karavan fame, how exactly do you expect to be neutral?

-Vanand

[lathan]

Raising kami fame lowers karavan and raising karavan lowers kami.. my kara fame is 65 and my kami fame is -65. So if I were to run enough kami missions at some point my fame would hit a point where it was 0/0 or near -I know of several people that have fame that could easy swing either kami or karavan- that would be neutral. From there I could join either side with a negligible amount of work. Being in a guild with very high karavan fame, how exactly do you expect to be neutral?

-Vanand

Well, firstly, the guild fame doesn't impact on your karavan or kami fame at all. Neither does race fame. That was altered a few patches back.

Secondly, raising one does not always lower the other. I have 57 karavan and -52 kami fame, which I will probably bring back to +2, +3 as soon as I can be bothered.

For me to switch sides in the event would require me to gain negative fame with one faction, as those with positive fame with both could not get into the old lands using neither portal. So I would need to run enough missions to go from -4 kami, +1 kara to +1 kami, -4 kara in order to swap sides. Starting from a negative fame with a faction isn't quite so easy to recover from, and when you consider how often the underdog fluctuated, that would have had me running more fame missions than digging mats/killing homins for the kami/karavan.

Even were that not the case, however, I still would not have joined in in that fashion, as I believe neutrality means removing onself from a war situation, or acting as an independant arbitrator if one is needed, rather than taking a side, which seems to be the antithesis of neutrality.

Now hominist is a different story, and that stance may well involve attempting to save your fellow homin, no matter the means. Neutrality does not imo.

[marct]

This proposal is for Neutral Pacificists, those opposed to war/PvP. To destroy a spire you will have to turn PvP on and fight guards and presumably other players. I'm not talking about another faction, just offering an opportunity for collective action (content) for players with a specific stance as individuals.

I would argue that Neutral to the factions is not wholey(sp?) those that are opposed to war/PvP. There are many that are faction aligned even strongly so whom do not wish to have war and/or PvP.

As defined by others in this thread. This is the challenge that Nevrax is up against. How to accomodate players whom wish the following.

• To be Neutral to the factions.
• To follow Tryton and go whichever way the wind blows him.
• Whom wish to be against war and are faction aligned or not.
• Whom wish to have no part in PvP and fall into any of the ohter above categories.

I am sure I am missing some categories here. The point I am making and that others appear to be also is that this is not a black and white issue. More so it is many shades of gray and liekly you would choose to be in many of these groups.

So how do you go about ensuring an active role with nearly equal-participation for everyone?


Noin.

[carrie]

Raising kami fame lowers karavan and raising karavan lowers kami.. my kara fame is 65 and my kami fame is -65. So if I were to run enough kami missions at some point my fame would hit a point where it was 0/0 or near -I know of several people that have fame that could easy swing either kami or karavan- that would be neutral. From there I could join either side with a negligible amount of work. Being in a guild with very high karavan fame, how exactly do you expect to be neutral?

-Vanand

Well I'd expect being in a guild which might have high Karavan fame as a neutral player to be possible as stated in the notes from Nevrax :

"A pro-Kami guild would not be allowed to have pro-Karavan members, but neutral members would be allowed."

Further, it's my understanding that the guild's fame regarding faction doesn't effect an individual's faction fame.

Also, in regard to a character with 0/0 faction fame, I started a new avatar which was not guild associated and had 0/0 fame as no missions had been taken on, my character was unable to enter the old lands. I'm assuming because she wasn't aligned with either faction.