2h Sword vs. 1h weapon + shield....thoughts?

[vguerin]

I'll make sure I get off my butt and finish my 250 so its a fair fight

Who needs fair... it's for science

[thebax]

Are you kidding me? Slow attack is 10% and that's it? What all did he say about it? I really hope there's more to it than that...

Forget what I said about slow making you a better tank -- I was assuming around 50% slow.

Yes, "slow" slows your assailants attacks by 10%, for and it lasts for 5 seconds. That is why alot of people thought it didn't do anything, and why Xavier had to post specifics. Even though it functions, apparently as intended, the human mind is not keen enough to notice it. I did the math in the Q&A section, showing why, for me at least, I am aproximately 25% better off using increased damage instead.

[sidusar]

True, it is down to play style, but for now, from a purely mathmatical point of view, 1H slashing or piercing weapons +shield make for better meatshields than 1H blunt + shield.

Ah, I always thought "best tank/meatshield" meant being able to take the most damage, and for that a mace with a shield would be best. But I agree in most situations, you'll only want enough tanking ability to stay alive (and a two-handed weapon will do for that) and do as much damage as possible to kill the creatures faster.

Staying alive easier at the cost of doing less damage will generally just make the fight last longer.

Are you kidding me? Slow attack is 10% and that's it? What all did he say about it? I really hope there's more to it than that...

The "slow" is effective for 5 seconds (renewed every hit), and slows down the actions by 10%.

All he said, and it's about correct with what I found through experimentation. The creature will hit you 9 times instead of 10, and only if you hit it with slow every two attacks. After getting those results, I decided not to use a mace after all

[boinged]

Is this the change being refererred to?

Sword: has a parry bonus that allows to lower received damages by 10% (comparing to axe and mace).

If so, then does this:

Pike: 20% less damage, 10% faster, 20 in reach (3 others weapons have 10) that allows to lower received damages by 10%

mean the pike has it too? Or is it that the (self) parry mod for swords now works, i.e. depending on what mats you use?

Personally I was hoping a shield would help more in a team, it absorbs damage as well right?

Regarding the weapon changes:

Looking at the Damage over Time (DoT) for the weapons, the pike is down to 88% of previous values and the mace (and axe) is up to 108% so at first glance this weapon could become more favourable.

I think it's true to say that by slowing your target by 10% you are reducing their DoT to you by 10%. I.e. mace+slow = sword = pike, except the mace has more DoT, sword has bleed and pike ignore armour. This does seem to make maces redundant.

IIRC Bleed on a sword is 10% too per hit, but it stacks up to 100%. It also seems to last a lot longer than 5s which has it's uses when your prey decides to run off. Maybe if slow stacked then it would be more useful although it will be tough to balance as it's kind of an affliction.

Those are my random thoughts

[sehracii]

I've never had such problems with shield protection. It works unreliable, that's true, but fighting against creatures my own level or even 30 levels above me, it works about 25%-50% of the time. Against creatures 100 levels below me, it works nearly all the time.

I do use a shield close to my melee level, maybe you're using one far above or below yours and it doesn't work as well because of that? Otherwise I have no idea why our experiences are so different

More tests were in order!

Lvl 151 skill with Q150 shield aginst lvl 151 nettled timari absorbed damage 20% of the time

Lvl 202 skill with Q150 shield absorbed damage 30% of the time on the same nettled timaris

Lvl 151 skill and Q190 shield against nettled timari absorbed damage 60% of the time

lvl 202 skill and Q190 shield on timari absorbed dmage 20% of the time.

Conclusion - Either the chance to absorb system is entirely too complex for a homin to understand, or it's totally bogus.

Either way, I still believe the protection factor is useless , so I'll stick with my +30 parry for highest melee and no shield for the rest of my 1H.

Notes- All calculations were based on 30-50 hits, but rounded as they were full of streaks. Thank you Sittingbull for the heals and not taking screenshots of my nudity

[sidusar]

mean the pike has it too? Or is it that the (self) parry mod for swords now works, i.e. depending on what mats you use?

The sword has a +20 parry modifier (at maximum) that other 2-handed weapons don't have. Apparently +20 parry means you receive 10% less damage?
The pike has 10 more reach than the other 2-handed weapons which apparently decreases damage inflicted to you as well, but I have no idea how that works... Does it increase your chance to parry? Does it just take 10% off all damage inflicted to you? Any pikers who can comment on this?

I think it's true to say that by slowing your target by 10% you are reducing their DoT to you by 10%. I.e. mace+slow = sword = pike, except the mace has more DoT, sword has bleed and pike ignore armour. This does seem to make maces redundant.

True, but the 10% defense bonus always works for sword and pike, while with mace it only works if you use slow on your attacks, which costs quite a bit of stamina.

More tests were in order!

<snip>

Conclusion - Either the chance to absorb system is entirely too complex for a homin to understand, or it's totally bogus.

Either way, I still believe the protection factor is useless , so I'll stick with my +30 parry for highest melee and no shield for the rest of my 1H.

Notes- All calculations were based on 30-50 hits, but rounded as they were full of streaks. Thank you Sittingbull for the heals and not taking screenshots of my nudity

Oh Jena, please no. I don't have time for shield tests, I still have to work out the new jewelry system and the magic damage type and resistances of the Atys wildlife, not to mention the chances of parrying or dodging based on level differences. *sigh*

I don't think it's too complex, but with 30-50 hits you're still quite suspectible to randomness. I think you'll need at least a few hundred to get a reliable percentage score (ack, can't somebody else do this? please?).

[brithlem]

actually... 30 - 50 is ... statistically speaking.... a reasonable amount to come to a decision based off of.

just need the right couple of statistics equations / stats programs.... do a quick bit of caculating... and you'd have a conclusion the majority of the great minds in stats would feel comfortable with... if you have issues with excel and it's stats package... which isn't the best on the planet anyways.... check the web for a program called "mini-tab" .... great program... very very user friendly...

so ... at least from a number of trials standpoint your work holds up.... knowing nothing more.... i can't offer much more of an opinion....

[sehracii]

Whether or not it was enough data to get the proper percentages, is kind of a moot point to me.

It should be obvious that regardless of how often shields truly do absorb, you can't count on it working.

It's like affliction on anything even slightly over your level.

There's so many things in this game that work so unreliably, they are useless for basing your hunting strategy on. Sure, it might work great sometimes. But you have to expect them not work, otherwise you'll end up dead. That's what I have a problem with.

Fights are generally wwaaaayyy too short for the streakyness of action percentages to balance out.

Which brings us back to the two guarantees-
Elemental will do lots of damage and heal will keep you up

With the new special absorbing jewlery, we're getting closer to having a tank you can count on to take lots of hits. I wish shields could add to that, but their effect seems negligible, outside of parry mod.

Would it really be that bad if a tank in full heavy with a large shield could absorb 75% of melee damage ALL the time? I hardly find that too powerful, especially since it wouldn't even be that much on things over your level.

And if it is too much, then bring the shield PF down slightly; but make it actually work ALL the time so we know what to expect!

[marct]

Whether or not it was enough data to get the proper percentages, is kind of a moot point to me.

It should be obvious that regardless of how often shields truly do absorb, you can't count on it working.

It's like affliction on anything even slightly over your level.

There's so many things in this game that work so unreliably, they are useless for basing your hunting strategy on. Sure, it might work great sometimes. But you have to expect them not work, otherwise you'll end up dead. That's what I have a problem with.

OK! OMG. Personally I would like not to be able to figure this stuff out. (even though I am just as analytical as you) Along with that, I would like it to work as intended, and how do we ever know it is not.

I prefer a more dynamic system that using the information we have today would make it impossible to know the right formula for a perfect fight. I think more of the ingame variables should be used to determine how I function best, and how the flora/fauna function. If I am a Matis, maybe I get a bonus to hunting in the forest, but in the desert in the summer man am I weak.

I think the seasonalities should be higher as well as time of day and weather to affect both my strengths and weaknesses, not to mention which of the 16 seasons we am in in a year. Animals should migrate and fight differently in the combination of different weather,different seasons and at different times in the year. Why can't I have characteristics that make me a better night or day hunter, etc. If I have fought for several days in a row why don't I get weaker and not regen as fast, or consume more sap/stam to perform the same action... If I have not fought for days, I become stronger(to a point) and regen faster and use less stam/sap/etc.

Oh well, hopefully you get my point! Make it more dynamic and more varied, and while you are at it, throw a random variable in there every once in a while.

Noin. (Always wishing for the holy grail)

[sidusar]

But it's not a moot point to me, I want to know how things work

Yes, 30 - 50 is a reasonable amount to come to a decision based off of. I'd estimate the chance that the results are off by 10% is fairly large, but the chances that the results are off by more than 20% are very unlikely. So if there was any pattern in the results that would've been good enough for me. But as Sehraci said there's no logic in the results, so either there's a variable missing or there aren't enough measurements for a reliable probability.

I did some similar tests of my own which add to the lack of logic; 50 hits against a level 113 roaring zerx, using skills of 165, 101, and 63. Since the results were largely the same for all three skills (shield absorbed damage around 90% of the time) I'm led to believe the chance only depends on your highest (melee?) level.

So, Sehraci's tests would seem to indicate that with a level 202 skill against a level 151 nettled timari gives her shield no more than 40% chance to absorb damage. I took 50 hits from a nettled timari myself with a level 165 skill and found a chance of 75% to absorb damage. It makes no sense at all. Am I just so much luckier than she is?

Also took 15 hits from an awesome vorax (those scars are never going to leave anymore, sob) against which I might as well have been fighting without a shield. None of the hits was absorbed by it.

Yes, against creatures higher level than you a shield doesn't work often enough to be reliable. Nor does anything else, really. Parry will often work 10 times in a row one time and fail 10 times in a row another time, against the same creature. And that goes both for the creature parrying you and for you parrying the creature. Same for dodge and resist. On one ocyx my first stun hits and maintains linked for the entire battle, on the next I don't get a hit in at all despite throwing a dozen stuns at it. Bleeding seems to work only if you get a full hit, a partial parry/dodge negates it entirely. Elemental magic is a little more reliable, but creatures still have a tendency to suddenly resist all my spells when I need them to hit most.

The only combat skill that's really reliable is healing, which (I believe) is exactly why a party can't hunt efficiently without healers.

As for the new special absorbing jewlery, as far as I've seen it doesn't absorb specials. The system info says it does, but you still take the full damage.