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Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:54 am
by grimjim
asyne wrote:Huh? How would GMs affect AI? Maybe I'm not seeing the connection you're trying to make, but it seems that the only way that GM could affect it is by controlling a mob...and I don't know if that is possible.
The quote I most often see from PvP people is that they like he 'thrill' of going up against a human opponent. A way to provide that, without all the negative consequences of PvP, is to have GMs who live up to the tabletop term, directly controlling the actions and tactics of the 'bad guys'. I have no idea if that's possible here either, but its a direction I'd like to see MMOs take.
asyne wrote:Consequences....like? Angry people attacking each other? That's not so bad, especially if they are interested in attacking each other. Evil folk dropping innocents in PvP areas? PvP consent tags would solve that nicely.
We've already seen the negative knock-on effects it has on the community and people within it. It shouldn't really need stating.

In the end it boils down to one thing. Including PvP that is non-consensual in any form allows one group/type of players to deprive others, forcefully, of the type of play they prefer (non PvP). Consensual PvP allows pro PvP to kill each other to their heart's content without impinging on anyone else's style of play. And yes, PvP areas, even flagged etc, are non-consensual - you're cutting people off from more than just PvP. The only consensual PvP _area_ in the game at the moment is Matis arena. The other areas do not count because they hold resources and aspects of play outside PvP.

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
by ozzy111
grimjim wrote:In the end it boils down to one thing. Including PvP that is non-consensual in any form allows one group/type of players to deprive others, forcefully, of the type of play they prefer (non PvP). Consensual PvP allows pro PvP to kill each other to their heart's content without impinging on anyone else's style of play. And yes, PvP areas, even flagged etc, are non-consensual - you're cutting people off from more than just PvP. The only consensual PvP _area_ in the game at the moment is Matis arena. The other areas do not count because they hold resources and aspects of play outside PvP.

I like the concept you describe and the terminology used. This is a very workable idea that would be a way for both sides of the pvp issue to get what they want out of the game. Well Done

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:13 am
by oauitam
Will PvP harm or help?


Maybe Nevrax are thinking money?
(Not a dig, I'd love them to get out of their financial difficulties.)

The addition of PvP will not lower dev workload by obviating the need for story/content.
Look at all the work having to be done to change healing and armour, to add new systems for jewellery and racial resistances etc. Almost every change on the ATS has become a pressing issue because they've decided to prepare for full PvP.

The changes won't be 100% perfect and, until they are (ie "forever more"), the forums will light up with the newly created problems of PvP balance. (This isn't just a posibility, it will happen. Look at the forums of any full PvP-enabled mmorpg if you haven't experienced this yourself).

Sure the game could do with a tweak or two from it's current state but add in PvP and the tweaks are no longer "nice to have", they become "must be fixed immediately". PvE healing could maybe do with a few changes but we can wait a couple of months with no harm being done. If PvP healing needs changes then characters will die and players will be unhappy immediately. The 'time to fix' drops to almost nothing when characters lives are at risk.

The majority of the current players don't want PvP, so not only must PvP issues be fixed immediately they must also not adversely affect this non-PvP majority. The 'difficulty to fix' increases hugely when two separated systems can be affected in different ways by a single fix.



Let's ignore all the above and pretend that enabling full PvP doesn't increase the Nevrax workload and satisfies the PvP crowds desires.
The addition of PvP does not decrease the need for story/content.
Even the people that want PvP want story/content too (there are much better game systems out there for pure PvP). The majority of the playerbase, who don't want PvP, haven't got anything new to play with at all - indeed some of the existing stuff may have now become off-limits.

When it comes to the day-to-day, Nevrax will now have two audiences to satisfy: players working against the environment and players working against players. When it comes to the storyline, Nevrax have the same audience they always had. Surely this has to increase the work the devs have to do?


PvP doesn't help players make their own content.
In a perfect game, both sides of a conflict can be in on the rationale and enjoying the fight. In the real game, you only need one 'jerk' to ruin the whole thing. I've been involved in player-driven PvP in several ways in the live game as it stands now. It works well when it's consensual (duels or arenas with lack of outside interference) and when it isn't (Prime Roots areas) it ends with the arrival of a 'jerk' and with griefing, slanging matches, hurt feelings and vendettas.

People play in persistant worlds for the emotional attachment to a growing character. Killing a character in Atys (or any MMORPG) is fundamentally different from killing some guy in Counter-Strike. Fundamentally. Emotions are heavily involved.


There seems to be just one thing that we all agree on. Ask around in-game and there is a major consensus;

the best thing about the Saga of Ryzom is the people.

This is the one thing that sets Ryzom above the rest. Why add in opportunities to set the players against each other? Why promote a risk to this unity, the one feature that puts this game #1 in the market?



The bottom line of the financial problems I see lies simply in these questions;
Will making the whole map pvp attract a quantity of new players?
Will making the whole map pvp make a quantity of existing players quit?

This whole thing seems like an awful lot of work (to implement and then maintain) to try and temporarily appease a small portion of the players, while risking the enjoyment of the majority. I'd like this time spent elsewhere.

Don't you need one hell of a good reason to open Pandora's Box?

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:19 am
by uhuhu
YES for PvP!

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:30 am
by oauitam
uhuhu wrote:YES for PvP!
Hehe, thanks Audrey!


I think the content of your argument, and its author, illustrate my concerns much better than my essay did :)

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:36 am
by asyne
grimjim wrote:A way to provide that, without all the negative consequences of PvP, is to have GMs who live up to the tabletop term, directly controlling the actions and tactics of the 'bad guys'. I have no idea if that's possible here either, but its a direction I'd like to see MMOs take.
That would be very nifty, but I don't think it is widely applicable here. Given the number of GMs versus the number of major to intermediate difficulty mobs in an event, a GM or two controlling the boss mob of the event, or at least 2-3 of the higher mobs would add some spice. GMs controlling random mobs when players are around would be a little unreasonable. Still, that is a pretty good - if non sequitur - idea.
grimjim wrote:We've already seen the negative knock-on effects it has on the community and people within it. It shouldn't really need stating.
I'll say. But, there have been some improvements due to it in my opinion. The 'season-change skirmishes' in Roots after people stopped complaining about not getting the mats they wanted and started taking action to get them; that seems to be a plus.
grimjim wrote:PvP areas, even flagged etc, are non-consensual - you're cutting people off from more than just PvP.
More than PvP...like? The consentual PvP in Matis Arena can't be applied everwhere, otherwise things like afore mentioned highly-desirable mats would be handed out to the first comer, not the player who has spent months grinding to be the best. High-level mobs and bosses? Well, if you're planning to take them on, you should be at a level in a combat skill where you aren't so vulnerable. And even with flagged non-consentual PvP, a player will need to knowingly enter the area in order to be attackable.

And just because it's needed, hats off to oauitam for the high-quality essay.
oauitam wrote:When it comes to the day-to-day, Nevrax will now have two audiences to satisfy: players working against the environment and players working against players. When it comes to the storyline, Nevrax have the same audience they always had. Surely this has to increase the work the devs have to do?
Not really, as the division isn't black-and-white. Some prefer all PvP, some prefer all PvE. Myself; majority PvE with the option of PvP. Still, this being an online game, the placement of PvP zones in strategic areas lets the most dangerous mobs guard those areas: players. Players are the most powerful mobs of them all, always getting stronger, never able to be permanently killed, able of human-level intelligence (I hope). So, all a PvP strike team would have to do is make sure that PvP works and allows for those that don't want it to avoid it, which is the case thus far.
Will making the whole map pvp attract a quantity of new players?
Will making the whole map pvp make a quantity of existing players quit?
Pssh, forget about the players deal, a whole map of unrestricted would be suicidal. Right now, PvP is great; duals for those that want it, and others don't need to worry about it. The PvP situation in Ryzom doesn't need to be expanded, but really shouldn't be taken away.

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:39 am
by mmatto
oauitam wrote: This whole thing seems like an awful lot of work (to implement and then maintain) to try and temporarily appease a small portion of the players, while risking the enjoyment of the majority. I'd like this time spent elsewhere.

Don't you need one hell of a good reason to open Pandora's Box?
Like going out of business unless managing to attract lot more customers than currently?

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:44 am
by oauitam
mmatto wrote:Like going out of business unless managing to attract lot more customers than currently?

Precisely my worry, mmatto!

I love Ryzom and desparately don't want it to fold (hence the posting). I am worried that this direction seems to be based on muddled thinking.

It is hard to see how implementing worldwide PvP will promote a big influx of new players.
It is easy to see how it risks a major exodus (just ask Jessica Mulligan).

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:59 am
by manya
I love Ryzom and desparately don't want it to fold (hence the posting). I am worried that this direction will gain them few new people and lose them many existing ones. The changes seem to be based on muddled thinking.


I'm afraid that is exactly what is going to happen. I had started a thread a while ago, with a pool trying to determine just how much PvP Ryzom players want. The two extremes were 'Unlimited PvP' and 'No PvP at all'. I expected the replies to fall somewhere in the middle, but suprisingly enough, the strongest single choice taken was the extreme anti PvP. You can see the pool here: http://www.ryzom.com/forum/showthread.p ... ge=1&pp=10

Re: Do we really need PvP?

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:59 am
by sprite
asyne wrote:Right now, PvP is great; duals for those that want it, and others don't need to worry about it. The PvP situation in Ryzom doesn't need to be expanded, but really shouldn't be taken away.
Agreed .