Ryzom

philu wrote:I fail to understand the point you're trying to make in this post Neun? Specifically in the bit about the other game?

First - my post was a reply to the previous post, hence the 'quoting'.

philu wrote:And this is different from Ryzom how?

And exactly you got my point without even realising it - why add 50 different looking spells or fight actions that result in the exact same result - dmg. Its gamer nature to pick the one that works the best all round, at the end of the day most of us are lazy

My first post related to you poll thread and the second was a reply to someone elses post.

thebax wrote:New healer-types quitting because they cannot perform any useful function
+
The necessity of twice as many healers
+
New fighter/nuker types quitting because they continually die because there are not enough healers
=
A game almost no-one will want to play, because it is a huge pain in the @$$.

Don't really agree (how surprising ), an good healer could keep a team going before the changes. With the changes, a team might be prone to wipeouts.
But this give room for more changes to team dynamics and constructions, I think that the changes will give afflictors and ranged combat a more serious thought, than what is the case now.
I hope it will, since I prefer affliction over the other branches, yet my main maigc is healing follow by elemental.

And let's not forget that if one can't adapt to changes, you will stagnate. I would want to SoR to be a dynamic enviroment.

borg9 wrote:First - my post was a reply to the previous post, hence the 'quoting'.



And exactly you got my point without even realising it - why add 50 different looking spells or fight actions that result in the exact same result - dmg. Its gamer nature to pick the one that works the best all round, at the end of the day most of us are lazy

My first post related to you poll thread and the second was a reply to someone elses post.

Because hopefully the Devs will make some of those actions more or less usefull depending on the target , so knowledge and tactics would become part of the game instead of just spamming the same thing over n over n over...

Id also like to see mob spawns become "depleted" as well with mayb a different mob spawning there so needing a change of venue or attack method

borg9 wrote:First - my post was a reply to the previous post, hence the 'quoting'.



And exactly you got my point without even realising it - why add 50 different looking spells or fight actions that result in the exact same result - dmg. Its gamer nature to pick the one that works the best all round, at the end of the day most of us are lazy

My first post related to you poll thread and the second was a reply to someone elses post.

Thanks for clarifying.

But are you saying that combat in Ryzom works like other games so why change it? Or something else?

I agree there's no point adding more spells etc that just amount to the same thing. I don't think that will solve anything. Nor do I think (in case you haven't guessed yet) that the proposed changes help. I don't think they address the perceived problem either. I say perceived because I don't think there IS a problem (not with balance). Melee take the hits, nukers do the kill. That's how it works, always has. Everyone has a role to play. In this as in other games.


The only time there's a problem is when the tank doesn't get a hit in and gets no XP. So how about THIS for a change? If a tank is hit by a mob, attempts a hit back, and that mob is killed by a team mate. The tank gets XP too. We know they can do this because they were going to do a similar thing for healers but pulled the idea. Would that stop the melee people whinging a little?

i dont think mellee ppl are whinging. When a team of 2 mages can get 3k xp every couple of seconds with no need for breaks, where is the room for mellee? If heal was weakened, it would mean a mage could no longer tank effectively, creating a useful role for mellee. Maybe stam heal could be increased a little also, giving them more attack options, whilst leaving sap heal as it is would reduce the power of elementals so mellee stand a chance of getting a hit in. @Baxter, there would also be a role for lower lvl mages as a backup healer just to keep the main healers hp/sap topped up.

And tbh i too am sick of this game being 'dumbed down' there seem to be few challenges left and weakening heal might just help with that.
Btw, just so you know, my highest hunt lvl is heal, followed by ele so im not just a disgruntled mellee

philu wrote:Let's not start a long discussion on this thread folks. Just vote yes or no!

Easy for you to say, but this poll is incomplete. It asks us if we want to have heal weakened, and nothing else. But that's not what's going to happen.
Imagine me asking you: "Would you give another person hundred dollars? No discussion, no 'if', just yes or no." What would you answer? 'Yes' means you're saying you have no problem with giving 100 dollars to random strangers. 'No' means you're saying you would never give 100 dollars to anyone, even if they gave you a million in return.
Most likely you wouldn't want to answer either yes or no, you'd want to answer "yes in some conditions, no in others". Well, that's what I'd like to answer to your question, but your poll doesn't have that option. Hence I'm forced to discuss.

philu wrote:And what's the point in making heal stam and heal sap more powerful than heal HP??!! That's just dumb

Yes, it makes so much more sense that your wounds heal faster than it takes to catch your breath...
As said, right now HP credits are far superior to stamina and sap credits. We only really use stam or sap during soloing, when there's a healer around we usually use our health for everything. And that's just dumb.

philu wrote:MY point is that these changes have far more impact on healers than nukers. Why reduce the power of heal when it's the nukers that are too powerful?!

Healers are currently far more powerfull than nukers, as I explained in the thread you linked to. What makes healing so powerfull is that it always hits, while every other skill can be resisted/dodged/parried.

philu wrote:Also remember this, if they reduce the power of heal then the players who will be affected most are the FIGHTERS. They will die more often when they tank because the healer can't heal them fast enough.

Possibly, but at least they will be needed. Right now fighters aren't even needed because elementalists can tank just as well.

kratos84 wrote:This is a very good point, there is already a serious lack of healers in game.

What game would that be? If there's one skill in Ryzom that almost every player works as a secondary skill, it's healing.
The reason it's so hard to find a healer is not because there's a lack of healers, but because there aren't enough substitute skills for healing. Of all the myriad combat skills, healing is the only one that does a decent job at keeping the party alive. So every person working any other skill needs a healer to survive.
If they want to relieve the stress on healing, they need to make other skills more effective at reliably decreasing the mobs damage output. Some possibilities:
- Afflictions could theoretically already be used to replace healers, by preventing the mob from doing any significant damage. But this works only if the afflictionist can be reasonably sure to get a link and maintain it for some time. Right now affliction is too unreliable; three resists in a row, which is more rule than exception, and without a healer your tank is already down. Heal doesn't have this problem because healing spells always land.
- A fighter in heavy armor not using health credits should be able to stay alive, even without healing, long enough for the party to kill the mob. Right now this isn't the case, often the tank is already half dead by the time he has pulled the mob to the party.
- Slow attack for blunt weapons can be used to decrease mob damage, but right now the effect is too tiny (only 10%) to be significant. Critical hits on the front legs using aiming stanzas also decrease mob damage, but critical hits right now cannot be triggered in any way and only depend on luck. And they certainly don't happen enough to count on getting one in every fight.
There's already plenty of opportunities to take some stress off the healers, but all of them are currently hopelessly underpowered.

philu wrote:And this is different from Ryzom how?

The difference is that in Ryzom the tanks go down almost just as easily as the elementalists, so they're not really tanks.
Let's say we have your average level 125 fighter. He'll have 1400 health by default, with lvl 130 equipment about 2500. Now the average 125 elementalist, he'll have 700 health by default, with lvl 130 equipment about 1700. A decent level 130 mob does 450 damage. Fighter's armor takes 50% off, mage's armor 10%, so fighter goes down in 12 hits, elementalist goes down in 5. Sounds good, but now add in mob special attack hitting for double damage and unaffected by armor, used about 1 in 3. Now elementalist goes down in 3 hits, fighter in 6. Add a level 125 healer to the equation, healing over 1500 health per (single) spell, and the difference between the fighter and elementalist becomes negligible. Except for the elementalist doing 3 times more damage.

Nerfing healing alone won't fix this. Heavy armor needs to be a lot better. I'm fairly disappointed with the practically useless 'boost' to heavy armor they're proposing.

The biggest change you will all have to face:

Level 50 healers will not be as effective in a level 100 team
level 100 healers will not be as effective in a level 200 team.
level 125 healers will not be able to heal a level 240-250ish in the same way they could before.

What this boils down to is this:

Find a group that is hunting mobs appropriate for the groups skill level.

At the moment it is too easy to do all of the above things. I was healing effectivly, in grove (of confusion), from level 80 on wards. This is not balanced. I should have been the same level as the rest of the party (which was, at the time, 180-200).

A healer should be most effective in a team his/her level. A healer should not be able to heal more hp than an elementalist can deal damage (Instant resurections in pvp don't add strategy).

Healers are far to powerful in both pvp and pve enviroments. It is too easy to keep a team alive (and if you are having problems doing this then you are having problems doing this).

If you don't care for pvp, you have to be able see why healing hp is far to powerfull for pve.

Now, Until I am able to test all the changes, combined, I (and everyone else) will not know what effect they will have together. We can only guess based on the information that we have (and we have a lot).

Unfortunatly, some people can't see the need for change ("What, I'll no longer be able to heal over 6k life?"), while other's (me, in particular) want to see mages (all mages) get a swift kick so that they are not so over powered...

I'm sure I'm just ranting a bit now

kratos84 wrote:This is a very good point, there is already a serious lack of healers in game. Obviously making them less powerful and virtually disallowing players to team up with healers lower than their level isn't going to help with the situation. What's ironic is that it is usually the melee who's looking for healers, so who knows, maybe when the 250 melee players who PvP are rejoicing, the aspiring swordsmen will live in agony. I disagree that dying a lot will make combats more interesting though. To me the lack of 'spice' comes not from how easy the hunt is but the limited options of actions. I am not sure if Nevrax had really thought about all the consequences when they again affect PvE by trying to balance PvP. In the long term I think the best way to solve both problems is to give melee, and the mobs, more specific actions and thus more scenarios and more strategic choices. Unfortunately it appears that Nevrax hasn't committed itself to doing that.

I remember seeing in one of the newer threads that they had actualy tried this early on in first beta, but found that it made things too complicated, and they were very prone to bugs, so they just took it out. Basicaly, there was a whole window, dedicated to fight actions, with different stuff than just the spell-like combat actions that there is now.


Noh
Zorai
Officer of Infinity

akicks wrote:Now, Until I am able to test all the changes, combined, I (and everyone else) will not know what effect they will have together. We can only guess based on the information that we have (and we have a lot).

Unfortunatly, some people can't see the need for change ("What, I'll no longer be able to heal over 6k life?"), while other's (me, in particular) want to see mages (all mages) get a swift kick so that they are not so over powered...

Don't give ALL mages a swift kick. As previously stated, the affilictions, both deffensive and offensive, are underpowered in the same way ranged is. NOT fighting, but RANGED. Resisted too often, and links are broken way to much. And this is not me trying to link to a vastly supperior mob, this is me trying to link to a mob that will give me 800 or so exp.


Noh
Zorai
Officer of Infinity

I'm for it along with most of the other rebalancing changes looking good.

But I also still hope they will consider some mob rebalances later. Carnivores are still insane, especially for a mage because of their hit/interrupt rate.