Ryzom

tylarth wrote: Kami and Karavan

I agree in your post Aajolea, but I am afriad it wont be a kami and karavan, but Kami OR Karavan..

I don't see why peace isn't an option.
Kami want us to live in harmony with the planet, that implies that war is avoided.
I have yet to see a kami order/ask me to go to war.
Our esteemed sage Mabreka have said that war is comming (to us), without saying that we had to fight, hence we still have an option to settle for peace before it happens.

I know some think that their spiritual path is an absolut (given fact), and some even that it is the same as their races' wish.
To me the kami is my spiritual guide, they don't order me around (never heard of them ordering anything) but show me a path to enlightenment.
Consider this, I harvest but I take care of the place I harvest, thereby maintaining the balance of nature, as it should be done.

To go to war, is neither a balance of nature or a path of enlightenment.
So it can't be the way of the nature or kami, and must thus be avoided.

We have lived in peaceful times for a long time now, why end that now?

I get this feeling of dejavu int his conflict, is it not the stereotypical parading of the powerhungry, they all use a speech based upon a simple template that goes something like:

You poor <insert racial name> are in such grave danger from the <powerhungry | oppressive | warhappy | treacherous | unbelieving | heretical | tyrannical | mad> <name of opposing party>, and are totally <blind |ignorant | brainwashed> to the grave danger that you're in.

Luckily some of your elders have realized this an have in their great wisdom asked us the <heroic | followers of the correct belief | compasionate | rightful | superior | fredomloving > for help, we can not deny such a plea.

So we call on you all <heroes | followers of the correct faith | compasionate | rightful | superior | fredomloving> beings to rally to the cause.

And as soon as you have vanquished your enemies with our help, and they have converted to the correct <political system | belif> we shall all live happily after.

The upcoming conflict will be a big sacrifice for us all where many shall not return, but that is such a small price to pay to be freed from the <tyranny | oppression | religion | political system>, and they shall be remembered as <heroes | followers of the correct faith | compasionate | rightful | superior | freedomlovers> and <songs | statutes | roads | buildings> shall be constructed in their honnor so that they may live on for ever.

Don't believe our detractors that will spread false rumors about us, we have no interest whatsoever or covet your <economy | natural resources | pepole | land>.

Remember that the <name of opposing party> is a lier and <powerhungry | oppressive | warhappy | treacherous | unbelieving | heretical | tyrannical | mad>.

And the only way to deal with them is by force, that is the only lanuage they will understand.

They will say and do anything to make you believe otherwise, so it is futile to reason with them. We are the only one that has the complete and utter truth by power of us being <heroic |followers of the only correct belief | compasionate | rightfull | superior | freedomloving>.

Also be on the lookout for the members of <some random group of beings> they are <traitors | terrorist | witches | heretics | mad | sick | delusional | brainwashed> subbeeings, and will try to subvert the rightfull course of events.

Remeber they are the eneny and can be anywhere, don't believe what they have to say, even better do not listen at all to their nefarious lies.
They are easy to spot: anyone that accuses us of not being <heroic | followers of the only correct belief | compasionate | rightfull | superior | unselfish | feedomloving> is a suspect and should be shunned.

tylarth wrote:A war is coming, peace is not an option. If you side with neither you become a victim of both sides atrocities, and will be the loser at the end, who ever wins.
To turn your back on Kami and Karavan is to spit in there eyes in a most ungrateful fashion, afterall it is they who resurrect you to their alters when you have fallen. if you do not follow either of their ways then that privilage will no doubt be removed, and you will die to the 'immortal' followers of the war parties. And in regard to your skills how many of you are trained in war, i suspect all of you, whether supplying materials,crafting arms and armour, or skill with weapon or amp. You are all part of a war machine, you have no skill in cooking or raising families, or pottery, or construction, or farming. No you are an army in training since your schooling on the refugee islands.

Yes, we should be making war, on the kitins and the goo that threaten us all. Homins attacking homins is the reason we failed to stop them earlier, the reason we were almost wiped out. The Karavan say that Atys will be destroyed when the Dragon awakens. They say that the goo must be stopped to preserve the planet. These are core elements of Karavan doctrine.

And yet, Ma-Duk is a major crisis. Why, because he threatens a world already destined for destruction? Moreover, if the goo is poisoning Ma-Duk, isn't the clear response to attack the goo, and not the followers of the Kami? After all, it is the goo that poisons him, and the spread of the goo. Not the Kami.

And the Kami, they meanwhile sue for peace and harmony. The balance is to be preserved, Atys must be kept safe. The goo is the greatest enemy of the Kami, and the Karavan are merely a "minor threat." Equilibrium and preservation are everything.

But the Kami support a war that would devastate the surface of Atys. They would redirect resources that could be used to halt the spread of the goo, and use them to kill homins - friends of mine, good people who follow Jena. They would "defend Ma-Duk" by destroying Atys.

Both sides claim to support hominkind. And yet both sides seek a war that will be (as is openly acknowledged by everyone involved) catastrophic and even apocalyptic. They claim that they have the best interests of homins in mind, but without even considering the welfare of the people of Atys they want to use us as weapons against ourselves, so they can destroy one another and fulfill their agendas.

Both sides claim to hate the goo, and yet both sides prepare for war and conveniently ignore it. The one goal that both sides share is to eliminate the goo - and now there is a perfect opportunity to work together and end this threat. The greatest threat to Atys, the reason Ma-Duk has been corrupted. The more the goo spreads, the harder it will be to stop - but both sides seem less and less concerned with keeping it in check (to say nothing of ending it).

Both sides claim to help hominkind against the kitin, the kitin that already have us struggling. Imagine if some pointless war shattered and fragmented us - how much chance would we stand against the kitin then?

I wanted to be loyal to the Karavan. This isn't easy for me. But there are only two conclusions I can reach based on this information. Either both sides in this war are insane, or both sides are lying to us. Either way, I would rather fight both of them together at the risk of my life than lay it down for their bloody causes.

Then to me you are no longer a folower of the Karavan and the ways of Jena. She comes to try and save us and there would be no blood shed if only small mined homins would just aloud her a free path all the way to Ma-Duk. It is only because the foolish will try and stand in her way that they must pay the price so the rest of us may live in peace.

zyrom wrote:I get this feeling of dejavu int his conflict, is it not the stereotypical parading of the powerhungry, they all use a speech based upon a simple template that goes something like:

You poor <insert racial name> are in such grave danger from the <powerhungry | oppressive | warhappy | treacherous | unbelieving | heretical | tyrannical | mad> <name of opposing party>, and are totally <blind |ignorant | brainwashed> to the grave danger that you're in.

Luckily some of your elders have realized this an have in their great wisdom asked us the <heroic | followers of the correct belief | compasionate | rightful | superior | fredomloving > for help, we can not deny such a plea.

So we call on you all <heroes | followers of the correct faith | compasionate | rightful | superior | fredomloving> beings to rally to the cause.

And as soon as you have vanquished your enemies with our help, and they have converted to the correct <political system | belif> we shall all live happily after.

The upcoming conflict will be a big sacrifice for us all where many shall not return, but that is such a small price to pay to be freed from the <tyranny | oppression | religion | political system>, and they shall be remembered as <heroes | followers of the correct faith | compasionate | rightful | superior | freedomlovers> and <songs | statutes | roads | buildings> shall be constructed in their honnor so that they may live on for ever.

Don't believe our detractors that will spread false rumors about us, we have no interest whatsoever or covet your <economy | natural resources | pepole | land>.

Remember that the <name of opposing party> is a lier and <powerhungry | oppressive | warhappy | treacherous | unbelieving | heretical | tyrannical | mad>.

And the only way to deal with them is by force, that is the only lanuage they will understand.

They will say and do anything to make you believe otherwise, so it is futile to reason with them. We are the only one that has the complete and utter truth by power of us being <heroic |followers of the only correct belief | compasionate | rightfull | superior | freedomloving>.

Also be on the lookout for the members of <some random group of beings> they are <traitors | terrorist | witches | heretics | mad | sick | delusional | brainwashed> subbeeings, and will try to subvert the rightfull course of events.

Remeber they are the eneny and can be anywhere, don't believe what they have to say, even better do not listen at all to their nefarious lies.
They are easy to spot: anyone that accuses us of not being <heroic | followers of the only correct belief | compasionate | rightfull | superior | unselfish | feedomloving> is a suspect and should be shunned.

Hmmm. Sounds Like George W. Bush's speech writer

ooc: Suibom has just recently arrived from the refugee camps. While he is freverently trying to find more information, he is still very ignorant on the subject, so I speak in the voice of another, older and wiser(?) Matis who's name is unknown at this point. I understand the Matis point of view, and these statements come from one who is loyal to Jena, but sympathetic to the other races and the Guild of Elias. Also, take into account he does have his own predjudices and knowledge set. I am still trying to fully understand the Zorai point of view, mainly because I do not know what rituals they go through regarding Ma-Duk, and what it is that is seen by Jena as consuming homin souls and bodies.

madnak wrote:Yes, we should be making war, on the kitins and the goo that threaten us all. Homins attacking homins is the reason we failed to stop them earlier, the reason we were almost wiped out. The Karavan say that Atys will be destroyed when the Dragon awakens. They say that the goo must be stopped to preserve the planet. These are core elements of Karavan doctrine.

And yet, Ma-Duk is a major crisis. Why, because he threatens a world already destined for destruction? Moreover, if the goo is poisoning Ma-Duk, isn't the clear response to attack the goo, and not the followers of the Kami? After all, it is the goo that poisons him, and the spread of the goo. Not the Kami.

The Kami are manifestations of Ma-Duk. To fight the spreading of the goo, we must destroy Ma-Duk and release her grip on the world. What you, and many others, are failing to see is that the goo is a direct result of Ma-Duk's sickness. The sickness is a direct result of the influence of The Dragon on Ma-Duk. The Dragon seeks his freedom through her corruption. The Dragon cannot be defeated at this point, so we must destroy it's vector to freedom. It is a shame that so many homins will also fall due to their blind devotion to a dying dream. This is what my research has lead me to believe.

We do have agents searching for other options, if we can find one maybe we can propose the solution to Jena. To date we have found nothing, and obviously Jena is far wiser and would know the solution long before us.

And the Kami, they meanwhile sue for peace and harmony. The balance is to be preserved, Atys must be kept safe. The goo is the greatest enemy of the Kami, and the Karavan are merely a "minor threat." Equilibrium and preservation are everything.

But the Kami support a war that would devastate the surface of Atys. They would redirect resources that could be used to halt the spread of the goo, and use them to kill homins - friends of mine, good people who follow Jena. They would "defend Ma-Duk" by destroying Atys.

As I mentioned earlier, the Kami are also affected by this sickness. By the influence of The Dragon, they will continue to believe that all is fine and they are merely being persecuted by Jena. They will continue to lead their followers to believe the same.

Both sides claim to support hominkind. And yet both sides seek a war that will be (as is openly acknowledged by everyone involved) catastrophic and even apocalyptic. They claim that they have the best interests of homins in mind, but without even considering the welfare of the people of Atys they want to use us as weapons against ourselves, so they can destroy one another and fulfill their agendas.

Both sides claim to hate the goo, and yet both sides prepare for war and conveniently ignore it. The one goal that both sides share is to eliminate the goo - and now there is a perfect opportunity to work together and end this threat. The greatest threat to Atys, the reason Ma-Duk has been corrupted. The more the goo spreads, the harder it will be to stop - but both sides seem less and less concerned with keeping it in check (to say nothing of ending it).

I believe it may be you who is not considering the welfare of the people of Atys. If Ma-Duk is allowed to continue, then homins will continue to die until The Dragon is released and Ma-Duk is destroyed. Not by Jena's hand, but by the hand of those who tried to save Ma-Duk. Any homins that remain will then be, once again, enslaved by The Dragon. Is this what you want?

Both sides claim to help hominkind against the kitin, the kitin that already have us struggling. Imagine if some pointless war shattered and fragmented us - how much chance would we stand against the kitin then?

I wanted to be loyal to the Karavan. This isn't easy for me. But there are only two conclusions I can reach based on this information. Either both sides in this war are insane, or both sides are lying to us. Either way, I would rather fight both of them together at the risk of my life than lay it down for their bloody causes.

You would rather effect your own death than fight for the possibility to live on? That is your choice. I plan to keep my eyes and ears open. To look for an opportunity to resolve this in another way if one arises. But if I must, I will fight for Jena to save my planet and kin.

-- Unnamed Matis

suib0m wrote:ooc: I understand the Matis point of view, and these statements come from one who is loyal to Jena, but sympathetic to the other races and the Guild of Elias.

The Karavan representatives have stated that being sympathetic towards the GoE is specifically not being loyal to Jena and the Karavan. But we'll let that be and continue to the meat of the subject.

suib0m wrote:The Kami are manifestations of Ma-Duk. To fight the spreading of the goo, we must destroy Ma-Duk and release her grip on the world. What you, and many others, are failing to see is that the goo is a direct result of Ma-Duk's sickness. The sickness is a direct result of the influence of The Dragon on Ma-Duk. The Dragon seeks his freedom through her corruption. The Dragon cannot be defeated at this point, so we must destroy it's vector to freedom. It is a shame that so many homins will also fall due to their blind devotion to a dying dream. This is what my research has lead me to believe

Not an ounce of proof in favour of the Goo being perpetuated by the Kami. They are the ones out of the two major powers that actively want it to be cleaned up! That is like saying that the Karavan are driving the Kitins to attack us! Fancy adding that to the rumour-mill?

I find it sad that so many intelligent homins are being taken in by propaganda designed to inflame a war between two sides that have been gunning for it for some time. I never thought that I would be on Saiwin's side considering her previously fervent following of Jena but she appears to have changed her tune and is playing in harmony with mine, to an extent. Above all else, I would avoid violence but as she so rightly said, I would rather fight against against being used as a pawn than die knowing that I fought not for homins, but for spirits or aliens.

glipe wrote:[/color]

The Karavan representatives have stated that being sympathetic towards the GoE is specifically not being loyal to Jena and the Karavan. But we'll let that be and continue to the meat of the subject.

Yes, you may be right. I am an old Matis, my beliefs are not as they used to be. I've seen far too many atrocities on all ends to not have doubts. I would not be talking with this alliance otherwise, even as I disguise my true identity. I believe in Jena as much as I have faith in anything. I know many of the Karavan guard are hers true, but I have doubts about some of them.

suib0m wrote:The Kami are manifestations of Ma-Duk. To fight the spreading of the goo, we must destroy Ma-Duk and release her grip on the world. What you, and many others, are failing to see is that the goo is a direct result of Ma-Duk's sickness. The sickness is a direct result of the influence of The Dragon on Ma-Duk. The Dragon seeks his freedom through her corruption. The Dragon cannot be defeated at this point, so we must destroy it's vector to freedom. It is a shame that so many homins will also fall due to their blind devotion to a dying dream. This is what my research has lead me to believe

Not an ounce of proof in favour of the Goo being perpetuated by the Kami. They are the ones out of the two major powers that actively want it to be cleaned up! That is like saying that the Karavan are driving the Kitins to attack us! Fancy adding that to the rumour-mill?

*laughs* You are mistaking us for the Fyrosian dogs. I'm sorry, forgive me. Old habits die hard sometimes. Yes the Kami work hard to defeat the goo. Do you not try to heal the gash recieved by sword? Does it not fester and rot if you pick and pry at it too much? The Kami try to preserve themselves from their fate as much by fighting the goo as by devouring souls. I must say, the two are the same to them.

I find it sad that so many intelligent homins are being taken in by propaganda designed to inflame a war between two sides that have been gunning for it for some time. I never thought that I would be on Saiwin's side considering her previously fervent following of Jena but she appears to have changed her tune and is playing in harmony with mine, to an extent. Above all else, I would avoid violence but as she so rightly said, I would rather fight against against being used as a pawn than die knowing that I fought not for homins, but for spirits or aliens.

You say these words but you bring no proof. You have your beliefs, I have mine. I am actively seeking further information for that truth. I look to Fyrosian scholars for that help *a visible shiver crosses over him, an indication that he is not fully comforable with some paths taken*, and what are you doing? You rally homins to supposed peace, and then claim you will kill homin before fighting for a cause? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. If you want to join my cause, then help me find the truth. If not, take your peace far far away and pray for your souls. Oh, I forget, you have no one to pray to. Then you will die without enlightenment.

- Unnamed Matis

The Legion of Atys have decided to join in in this Alliance.