Ryzom

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 7:38 pm**

haddo wrote:A couple of points here I want to clear up. I agree with free market and all that.

One more thing on whole 'free market' thing: There are limits within the game that prevent it from being a truely free market:

1. A given seller can only post X number of items up for resale (127, right?).
2. A given seller can't sell below a certain level. You can only sell for what the NPC will give you or more (the markup).
3. The population of the server, while bigger now that we've merged, is still somewhat small. True free markets assume a large supply of customers and suppliers.

So, I'm not sure it's really meaningful to start yelling 'free market' everytime one of these threads occurs.

As others have pointed out, Haddo is not asking for a rule change or anyone's banning or anything stupid like that. He just asks that if you agree with him to please respect his wishes and don't buy from resellers that don't add value.

I think there are cases where a reseller adds value. For example, a reseller that 'ports to Dyron, buys a few sets and puts them up in Avendale for a *small* markup, does provide a service. He makes the jewels available to the Tryker community for those that can't get to Dryon. But, don't grab everything in Dryon all at once or you hurt those that do buy from that location.

Making these jewels takes a lot of time. If you don't respect that time/energy and Haddo's wish that the jewelry be as available as possible, then that's your right. It's also his right to express his wishes. For me, I'd rather go without the jewelry than support someone that provides no value. That's my right and I'm not asking that it become any sort of rule or even community standard. It's just my opinion.

Lastly, someone implied that Haddo does what he does because he's greedy. I'm not going to pretend to be able to read his mind and understand *why* he spends hundreds of hours digging and grinding, but I doubt the term 'greedy' is the best word in this case. The demand for high level jewelry is very high; it's obvious to me that he could increase his markup substantially and still sell out. While a small bit of greed might be part of his motivations, it's obviously not the driving force or he would have done it by now.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 7:51 pm**

One possibility is that these infamous resellers are actually seeking for Haddo to stop providing cheap jewelry for masses. They might not be interested in extra dappers at all.

Who would want that? Well, there are high lvl guilds that can produce q250 jewelry for their members. This ability has required lot of work and now Haddo provides same benefits for all and with cheap price!

It is a conspiracy, i say!

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 7:52 pm**

This is great. I love a discussion that people are willing to share their opinions and get feedback. as long as we are respectufl.

in reply to the comment that Haddo isnt selling his jewels for dapper... THEN WHY DOES HE PUT A PRICE? Yes, he is selling for dapper. Yes he is doing a service to the community by selling at his price... although he does mark them up quite a bit... (percentage wise). So dont tell me he's doing it out of the kindness of his heart. He is in it for profit. Guilds need dapper.... he has plenty of reason to want the dapper. Thats just nonsense.

No, I am not hiding behind an identity. THOM, THOM, THOM... thats me. the only account I play. Careful with accusations... they are impolite.

It is my firm opinion that competitioin and trade (buy and sell) is helping the economy. Yes I understand that there is competition between crafters.... but really how many are there that can make q250 jewels? a handful? By keeping them on their toes... it promotes overall profitability for the market. Traders are a great part of Ryzom... It is like i said, another cool reason this game is cool.

please if you want to argue my point... make it a sensible argument... not just a whine like some of these have been. lets have an inttelligent discussion. If you feel that my opinion is wronog, please help me understand.... but provide logic... not just opinion.

life is great!

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:02 pm**

raven58 wrote:The simple answer to all this is for players needing items is to buy direct from the seller(Crafter) a simple Tell would be all that is needed.
The market place is for trade...some just buy and others buy and sell( known as Traders).
I do buy and sell and i donot hide behind a 2nd char,Trading in goods around Ryzom or any other game that has a market in goods is a part of the game play.
Take Eve-online you can even train up for this type of skill (Trading)in order for you to trade to others and the market in one place or the enitre market place,maybe this could be brought in for Ryzom ..in order to sell you would need skills to be able to do this!.
Traders buy in one place and sell where he hopes the goods he has brought will sell at a profit for him...the market will determine if he sells his goods.
once the seller(crafter) puts his goods on the market at a price he is happy with and they sell at that price then what happens after that is not his business.
It is down to the market to determine if the buyer sells at a profit or not!,if someone who resells gets greedy then he will not sell the goods/unless we get a situation where goods are in short supply,This is all down to supply of goods.

plz do not get me wrong..i know some will alway take advantage and rip players of big time but players will wise up to this and just not buy at inflated price's.
Traders(resellers) are not to be hounded out of the game...take what i do as a buyer seller....i look at the market in all of the market places on Ryzom,.......matis/fyros/zora & Tryker...then decide where my market is..say buy from Tryker goods that are short supply in Matis then put the goods on the market in matis at a profit..note if i put goods to high they WILL not sell .
My aim is to find a market for goods that are needed in other places..i log on and take 30 min just going round seeing what on the market then deciding what if anything i will buy.
I have at times when i started put my price to high and found the items would not sell ...but i have found the level at which is acceptable to buyers who buy goods i put on market...i donot force players to buy goods i put on market ...
If you put Goods on the market ..thats exactly what it is a market place.

Plz note this is my view only thanks for your time .

Raven you what are attempting to do IS tradering. You are adding value by buying something in one place and making it available in another. Making a porfit for your time is expected...i used to do much the same in the earlier days of EQ before the bazaar was added. One could make quite a bit of coin by traveling to the spots where people gathered to sell and taking those goods out to the high lvl zones where people were to busy grinding to stop somewhere and shop. This can and is done on most games that don't have a global sell mechanism.

This however, is not whats going on here and that's not what Haddo is complaining about. These people are waiting until he drops his goods in dyron and logs. Then they buy every single one raise the price and drop them back in dyron. There is no service being provided here! They aren't "trading" they are remarking. They are intentially inflating the market and they can get away with it because they buy the whole market.

Also, IMHO jewels are not a luxury in most peoples minds. They are essential gear. I know I used to spend every dapper I could scrap together to assure I alway had the best set available. I'n my mind nothing was more effective than doubling your HP if you are a warrior.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:13 pm**

larwood wrote:in reply to the comment that Haddo isnt selling his jewels for dapper... THEN WHY DOES HE PUT A PRICE? Yes, he is selling for dapper. Yes he is doing a service to the community by selling at his price... although he does mark them up quite a bit... (percentage wise). So dont tell me he's doing it out of the kindness of his heart. He is in it for profit. Guilds need dapper.... he has plenty of reason to want the dapper. Thats just nonsense.

How do you put something up for resale without a price? Is it even possible? I assumed the lowest you could do was a 0% markup over the NPC amount. Is it possible to put a -100% markup in the GUI? Regardless, why wouldn't he want some recompense for his efforts?

I didn't say desire for dappers wasn't *one* of his motivations; I'm sure it is. I love the black and white nature of your argument. He's either motivated solely by greed or solely by kindness of his heart? *That's* nonsense. People are motivated by lots of things. If pure greed was his only or primary motivation, he would have raised prices a long time ago and still sold out.

larwood wrote:It is my firm opinion that competitioin and trade (buy and sell) is helping the economy. Yes I understand that there is competition between crafters.... but really how many are there that can make q250 jewels? a handful? By keeping them on their toes... it promotes overall profitability for the market. Traders are a great part of Ryzom... It is like i said, another cool reason this game is cool.

Please explain how the existence of resellers keeps the crafters on their toes? I guess I just don't get that argument. As Haddo said, he makes his money either way. Resellers don't hurt him or his guild at all. Maybe there's something about free market theory I'm missing (not being sarcastic here; I just don't understand this argument).

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:14 pm**

quasar11 wrote: This however, is not whats going on here and that's not what Haddo is complaining about. These people are waiting until he drops his goods in dyron and logs. Then they buy every single one raise the price and drop them back in dyron. There is no service being provided here! They aren't "trading" they are remarking. They are intentially inflating the market and they can get away with it because they buy the whole market.

Solid point. By buying out the market, you create a total monoply, which defeats the purpose of trade. I agree with this point Xelir.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:22 pm**

larwood wrote:No, I am not hiding behind an identity. THOM, THOM, THOM... thats me. the only account I play.

You're fired Thom

(he's a guildee)

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:23 pm**

oldmess wrote: I didn't say desire for dappers wasn't *one* of his motivations; I'm sure it is. I love the black and white nature of your argument. He's either motivated solely by greed or solely by kindness of his heart? *That's* nonsense. People are motivated by lots of things. If pure greed was his only or primary motivation, he would have raised prices a long time ago and still sold out.

Please explain how the existence of resellers keeps the crafters on their toes? I guess I just don't get that argument. As Haddo said, he makes his money either way. Resellers don't hurt him or his guild at all. Maybe there's something about free market theory I'm missing (not being sarcastic here; I just don't understand this argument).

First:
Someone mentioned greed. You also said haddo wasnt in if for dappers. I addressed that issue only, that it is ONE of his reasons. We're not here to list all of the reasons he sells his stuff.

Secondly...
As explained, If one buys out the entire stock, they controll the market. This is not good. If only a few people sell that Q of jewels, then its the same situation, where one or a few people controll the market, this is not good either. That is what i mean by "keeping them on their toes". That phrase mean to keep them off-balance and not-secure... thus promoting competition and.... which drives, in my opinion, the economy.

Thank you for the intelligent respoonse.

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:25 pm**

holy smoke, when will i learn how to type?

Posted: **Wed May 11, 2005 8:26 pm**

larwood wrote:First:
Someone mentioned greed. You also said haddo wasnt in if for dappers. I addressed that issue only, that it is ONE of his reasons. We're not here to list all of the reasons he sells his stuff.

No one said he was doing it for "no profit". However, the cost at which he sells his jewels is far less that what he could receive if he were so inclined to raise his prices. The fact that he leaves them low is a solid indicator that he'd rather have his wares available to almost all. For another example of this, look at Keoni's auction for a "fair" price of q250s before Haddo had hit them. Some poor sap paid 6 mil for a set.

Ryzom

Don't feed the resellers

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