Ryzom

jfoxp wrote:That's not roleplaying, that's using the idea as an excuse.

While I agree that's a bad thing, I disagree with your generalization and damning of all roleplay, and roleplayers because of the actions of specific others.

So, I'm a bad person because I roleplay? All roleplayers use it as an excuse to grief? Sorry, I really hate generalizations, and your last two messages sure sounded like you are against all roleplay because of those bad experiences you had.

So, by this same token, I should hate all French people if I go to France and some waiter is a jerk to me?

Attack the problem people, not some label.

You can disagree with our reasons, but if you want to know why I "hate" RP, it is because I do generalize, as do many others. Wasn't that the question you were asking? You may not "like" the answer, but that is the main reason people "hate" RP, too many bad experiences.

You seem to have turned an inquiry into an accusation.

Note: If there were no down-side to RP (ie. no PvP, etc.), I'd be much more open to it.

splatula wrote:I choose not to RP probably 90% of the time, but that's because my guild members and I use this game also to chat with each other about our lives and the world we live in. I RP when others are RPing and I can think of something intelligent to add to the discourse, or when there is an event or situation that demands a little fictional fun.

So I'm nodding my way through this post, and then I get to the bottom and I'm like, oh snap, Oro.. lol. The line between roleplaying and reality is always going to be a blurry one in games like Ryzom, particularly when you're playing a "character" with a personality not a million miles from your own. When I'm digging in the dirt at Dyron and chatting to guildmates, I'm not going to pretend the world outside the game doesn't exist. But likewise, when I'm talking to a stranger or a member of another guild, I'll play it totally "straight". Nedwood is a friendly chap who loves exploring, doing odd-jobs for his beloved Kami, and helping out other Homins. I won't talk about things outside the game to strangers, and don't expect them to either.

It seems to me that people who want <ic> tags are looking for the cop-out; "it wasn't me who said/did that, it was my character!". But the fact is, for most of us, your character is the only "you" that we know (it's not like a tabletop game after all, where you can see the other person sitting across the table).

Everyone in Ryzom is roleplays to an extent. I think what the people who want to Role-Play-with-capital-letters need to understand is that in Ryzom, as in the real world, you have to face the fact that if you're gonna play the bad guy, people might not like you very much.

amcyr wrote:Note: If there were no down-side to RP (ie. no PvP, etc.), I'd be much more open to it.

I might be misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that RP does not allow for PvP? That doesn't make sense at all. Guild vs Guild conflict is in itself RP. An individual who takes control of an area and charges taxes at the threat of death is RP. There is lots of RP attached to PvP, not that much at the moment due to relative peace between Homins, but thats not to say that Roleplayers don't engage in PvP!

Heck, I'm dying to sink my teeth into some Roleplayed PvP. Roleplay isn't all "Carebear" lovey dovey stuff with flowers and ballrooms and weddings, thats just the icing on the dark and bloody cake man.

richaden wrote:I might be misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that RP does not allow for PvP? That doesn't make sense at all. Guild vs Guild conflict is in itself RP. An individual who takes control of an area and charges taxes at the threat of death is RP. There is lots of RP attached to PvP, not that much at the moment due to relative peace between Homins, but thats not to say that Roleplayers don't engage in PvP!

Heck, I'm dying to sink my teeth into some Roleplayed PvP. Roleplay isn't all "Carebear" lovey dovey stuff with flowers and ballrooms and weddings, thats just the icing on the dark and bloody cake man.

But it's very different when the people you're affecting are other players.
It's very different to any other form of roleplaying game.

richaden wrote:I might be misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that RP does not allow for PvP? That doesn't make sense at all. Guild vs Guild conflict is in itself RP. An individual who takes control of an area and charges taxes at the threat of death is RP. There is lots of RP attached to PvP, not that much at the moment due to relative peace between Homins, but thats not to say that Roleplayers don't engage in PvP!

Heck, I'm dying to sink my teeth into some Roleplayed PvP. Roleplay isn't all "Carebear" lovey dovey stuff with flowers and ballrooms and weddings, thats just the icing on the dark and bloody cake man.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant Open PvP.
RP with open PvP is playing with fire.
RP with consentual PvP (esp. consentual GvG) could be fun if handled nicely.

Open PvP better darn well be RP or it simply becomes griefing.

amcyr wrote:that is the main reason people "hate" RP, too many bad experiences.

That summarizes it pretty well for me too. I don't hate RP (not even between quotes), in fact I love it... when it works out well. But I've had a number of bad experiences with it that have made me quite anxious about it. Like some others have already mentioned, firstly there's people who use RP as an excuse to be jerks. Though I agree that's not really roleplaying, so it's a minor nuisance. More seriously is the problem with keeping IC and OOC apart. And I'm not talking about other players who don't RP themselves, if they mistake IC actions for OOC ones it's totally understandable. I'm talking about roleplayers that hold real grudges against me if my character has a conflict with their character. Or the other way around, roleplayers that make their character hate my character because they have a conflict with me. And then lastly there's the worst of the worst; OOC arguing over what is the 'right' and what is the 'wrong' way to roleplay. There's nothing wrong with defining a set of ground rules, and there's nothing wrong with some debating and arguing over these rules, but I have often seen those arguments rapidly develop into insulting back and forth creating downright vicious atmospheres. I could subdivide further and give examples, but generally those are the problems I've had with roleplaying; inability to seperate IC from OOC and arguing over the rules of the game.

Edit: In my above writing, I might have given the impression that the problem is always with a few people spoiling the fun for the rest, but actually I've found almost everyone is phrone to making these mistakes. I've probably been guilty of participating in above-mentioned activities myself. What I meant to explain was that, allthough I think roleplaying can be a lot of fun, in my (admittedly limited) experience it is also a spawning ground for tensions between the players. Whether or not the overall experience is enjoyable all depends on how well the players can work these out.

I agree with sidusar for the most part. There are no set rules for roleplay and because of this it's really just one conflict after another. I think people like the idea of roleplay, but without roles being clearly defined... it's hard to play along. Everyone is in the mindset that because they roleplay a certain way that others should somehow conform to that. At least ooc we're based in reality, mostly, and it's easier having a base to work from.

amcyr wrote:Sorry, I should have been more specific, I meant Open PvP.
RP with open PvP is playing with fire.
RP with consentual PvP (esp. consentual GvG) could be fun if handled nicely.

Open PvP better darn well be RP or it simply becomes griefing.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

As for my response you quoted earlier...

I wasn't accusing, but I was defending. I feel like I'm already labelled as a jack-ass just because I'm an RPer, even though I've only been here a couple weeks, and you've never run into me in game. Know what I mean?

More often than not, people take a negative stance on roleplay because they've had bad experiences with it, were wronged by this or that jerk mis-using the framework of roleplay as an excuse, or dealt with mass battles and arguments over not roleplaying the "right" way according to one or another person's rules.

All of these reasons for disliking roleplay are understandable, however, also more than preventable if the community takes responsibility for itself.

Rather than getting into generals, I'll just use how I roleplay as an example.

To start off, I make up a character who has a story or back story I'm interested in exploring. I then plop them in the world as is, and go about exploring and acting/reacting as that character would. As I come across people to interact with, I am typically IC, however, I make it clear to those I am roleplaying at that I am roleplaying by means of, well, telling them up front. ((double parentases are your friends for identifying ooc speech and talking to those that you meet as you roleplay, so that they get to know outright that the driver is not the character, and you are merely playing.))

If the people I roleplay at respond in kind, I continue roleplaying and end up usually making friends, and sharing story. If they don't, I respect that and continue to talk ((in parenteses in an ooc manner till I move on with my story elsewhere.))

Likewise, if the character someone is playing cannot rez someone due to thier ic beliefs, then it is just common courtesy to IC do as you would, but ((OOC rez them and tell the person that here, I the driver am helping, but IC my character stood and did nothing.)) Fiction is great like that, we can drop character to be courteous and nice and still maintain plot through a short ooc suspension of belief. This is what a deal of new and some hard core roleplayers have historically failed to understand, that in order to roleplay they have to let the character dictate thier actions, and that's simply not true.

You merely let the character dictate the character's actions, but you as a player are capable of acting ooc in a respectful and responsible manner despite your character being the untold overlord of the evil dragon.

People that cannot or do not seperate these IC and OOC modes out are those who tend to cause the problems that buy roleplay the negative reputation it has in so many MMO's.

That the community often doesn't know or try any better to identify those people, help them understand that diffrerence, or remove the true offenders and jerks from the community, is what continues it.

Having positive and constructive conversations such as this are strong steps towards bridging the gaps and creating a positive and fun roleplay environment that can happily co-incide with non roleplayers in harmony.
I think someone else mentioned it, but the real key to a good r/p environment as with any environment, is that it is fully consentual.

The way I see it has already been stated in a previous reply above, but I will summarize my outlook and ideas here. This and any other MMORPG is a fictional world and therefore not real which no one can argue with. Because of this fact you are Role-playing regardless of your feelings about RPing. Speaking specifically about Ryzom then whatever interactions happen between characters over "Around" Chat should be viewed as IC and that channel should be used for nothing else. "Region", "Guild", "Team" and "Tells" should all be used as OOC with the possible exception of "Team" as a team of RPers would decide that for themselves as would a team of non-RPers. This would make sense as far as the interacting with the world argument goes since "Around" chat is the only way to interact with the world around "you" the character. The other channels do not interact directly with the world, with the exception of "Team" as noted above, and are therefore OOC by design. This is demonstrated by the fact that you can't possibly talk to someone at the opposite end of a region nor across continents in this world. "User" channel, for anyone that doesn't know, will allow you to monitor all chat channels that you have access to allowing you to view different levels of chat at once, though "Tells" would be easier between two people for OOC speaking.

In respect to actual character next to character interaction I have this to say. If you wish to act OOC then talk to them using one of the OOC channels so that they will understand that you are not acting IC. I saw a perfect example listed above about not rezing someone due to IC beliefs. If you were so inclined you could "Around" chat your character response and then send the person a "Tell" or use the (( )) parenthesis if you actually did rez them. If someone doesn't rez another person due to their IC beliefs that is no reason to be angry and possibly label them a jerk. It is only DP and I'm sorry for saying it, but if you get angry over DP in this game then you are taking it to serious. It is inconvenient yes, but it isn't like you can be looted or you are losing hard-earned levels.

I say we just make this simple folks. If we just implement this ourselves as a community then hopefully we can move past all of the arguments and sometimes hostilities that have arisen out of this.

Siel