Ryzom

grimjim wrote:But retained access to all areas. Retained the options. Losing city access, 250 access and PR access all in one fell swoop takes a lot away. Losing half your access points but still getting easy access to the areas doesn't compare.

For the same amount of work (ie nothing; 30 fame) Neutrals get equal/more TPs (neutrals 36, kara 31, kami 30). Factioned players don't get 250 and PR for free. We lost city access, 250 access, and PR acces all in one fell swoop just like you did. For people who really don't like fame grinding, or just cba... they don't have them back yet. As for "oh but you can get them back"; show me a "quick & easy" way for a Kamist to get to Avendale or Avalae. Or for a karavaneer to get to MinCho. Or hey while we're at it lets try some other comparisons. How Womkan is right next to a Kami TP but the karas have to walk miles through one of the most aggro infested hellholes on Atys. Or how the "best" 250 grind spots in the game are right next to a kara TP but the kamist have to walk miles. Or how Jukoo is a 100m aggro-free jaunt from a kami TP, but the karas have to sneak across FD to get there. Or how right next to LoC Kara TP there's an easy sup spot, but kamis have to sneak across that zone to get there.

grimjim wrote:Your pronouncements and attempts at witticism along with Spriteh's frequent sig quotations and the antics of the usual suspects do marginally increase the value of the feeling of moral superiority though.

I've had 3 (excluding the classic from your 'dear' wife). One for ages, followed by another, and then this new one. Hardly "frequent". But even though it wasn't actually intended for your benefit alone (wow, something that didn't rotate about you, shock&surprise), I'm glad its having a positive effect on you; I'll keep doing it.

grimjim wrote:You lot are always bashing, you make no attempt whatsoever to understand the other side's point of view and you bash things that don't actually affect you. You're so fixated on your silly 'winning' point of view that you can't take a wider view of things that are good for everyone or that make the game enjoyable for a broader spectrum and thus help it succeed as a whole.

Hmmm sounds familiar...
Bashing... check
Not listening... check (so many choices here, but I could only pick one)
Stuff that doesn't affect you... check
Fixated on one point of view... check (its an overall thing, couldn't bear to single out one post )

And I'm still waiting by the way.

So lets try it again, I'll even give you some pointers, read carefully now and see if you understand this time

I was going to do a neutral's guide to digging; list all the places that are easy to access as a neutral for every type of mat. And I know they exist.
As I said if you want a specific mat PR is hard for everyone; if you wanna dig pilan oil at demons lap, you gonna have fun getting there. But if you want oil and resin simple and quick, at the safest spot in roots, go through nexus, walk 50m south from portal and prospect. Not a single mob for 500m. Big shell, 100m south of void portal, safe as f**k. Amber 100m south of underspring portal/desert. Bark 50m south of same portal Seed/node 50m from that. Its not hard tbh... in fact I use the neutral entrances to access them. If you finds walking from dyron to US hard, you've wasted 2 yrs on atys.
That wood and resin spot I mentioned before, if your kara, you got a huge mob filled trek to get there, but its the best grind spot in roots, only weathers in 1 season (all other seasons; one weather is up, one is down so never completely down), never depletes... hell, south US is mob free with like 20 spots and you can access it from zorai tp, no pvp, no sneaking.

Btw, see what I did here? I replied to several posts at once... Saves people having to plow through 5 posts by the same person on the same topic one after another. Try it some time, it might let you vent in a more controlled manner and stay more on topic. Now, I hope you don't just focus on the bits where I annoy you in this post (I'm sure there's more than one); it actually has some useful information here and if you read it you might actually learn something (not that it would come as any use to you since you don't dig PR, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that, just once, you can be enlightened by what someone else has said on a topic you are not a master of).

Having said that, I am arguing with a man that thinks all atheists and agnostics are inherently and automatically morally superior to everyone on the planet who is religious, so tbh I don't hold much hope.

moyaku wrote:So, what I say is : "Neutrals, take a K rite then get TPs and act as if you were neutral" this way you still look neutral but have access to any land. I think some already went this way... *easy enough*

*EDIT* For all I got from reading you guys being neutral is a matter of RP, ain't it ?
So even factionned as long as you don't use the flag... nobody knows and you can still RP as neutral. Now if you really want to make your own life miserable I guess it s a matter of choice

Is this a possible way of handling it?
Yes.
Some people do it.
Some people discuss it.
Is it a _good_ solution?
No, not really, but it becomes a matter of RP purity and there are potential issues stored up by doing so - what happens if another temple type event comes along for example?
Been tempted a few times, but it has felt a bit too much like giving in to pressure and on any database of alignment for the server, it won't create the right impression.
I don't expect a lot of people to get the RP motivation though :/

dakhound wrote:how is it a non argument when I spent the first few posts explaining how KP's wouldnt effect neutrals like he says, then when he constantly tells me I am wrong despite his next to no experience in PR whatsoever I lose my cool?

Jack, your posts were insightful and addressed the concerns raised by others.

As far as how it affects all homins has relevance, to a degree... it's the fact it's been on and on and on pages and pages of Jyudas vs. the rest of the posters that makes it so offtopic imho.

It's a public forum, we're all welcome to our opinions, but seriously, if you say the same thing 3 or 4 times, and 5 or 6 people try to explain to you maturely why that isn't as bad as you think, yet you start becoming belligerent and insulting, you are spamming or trolling.

If you can't make an argument without resorting to the logical fallacy of ad hominem, I think that means you have no more that needs to be said (just a general principal).

querzo, it is somethign most of us do is put our ingame name somewhere in our posts, we just like to know who we're talking to . I'm not trying to insult you, I just disagree that jack was using 'fluffy' argumentation, he knows a lot more about PR than me, and I live there full time .

sprite wrote:For the same amount of work (ie nothing; 30 fame) Neutrals get equal/more TPs (neutrals 36, kara 31, kami 30).

Different positions in the same area are not equal in worth to having access to all the areas.

sprite wrote:Factioned players don't get 250 and PR for free. We lost city access, 250 access, and PR acces all in one fell swoop just like you did.

You semi-lost city access, you retain TPs neighbouring or within those zones. You lost one location in each 250 area, not both, same with PR. This is not comparable.

If you have two cars, and one breaks down, you can still use the other to get where you need to go. If both cars break down, you can't go anywhere easily. (its an analogy, don't say something stupid about public transportation).

sprite wrote:For people who really don't like fame grinding, or just cba... they don't have them back yet.

They only have to do it once. One 'coping' tactic for us that has been suggested is to repeatedly grind fame back and forth to get TP tickets. Not a happy prospect.

sprite wrote:As for "oh but you can get them back"; show me a "quick & easy" way for a Kamist to get to Avendale or Avalae. Or for a karavaneer to get to MinCho. Or hey while we're at it lets try some other comparisons....<snip>

So Kami have it easy for some, Kara have it easy for others. You two have some sort of parity (though the run to the other cities is much easier than the run to Avendale). We have a combination of both sets of problems and more on top.

This goes back to balance Vs equality.

sprite wrote:Hmmm sounds familiar...
Bashing... check
Not listening... check (so many choices here, but I could only pick one)
Stuff that doesn't affect you... check
Fixated on one point of view... check (its an overall thing, couldn't bear to single out one post )

Regarding your links...

Bashing - Counterpunch to your incessant snide remarks.
Not Listening - Correct, they missed the point, hence the need for repetition.
Stuff that doesn't affect you - I think you mislinked.
Fixated on one point of view - So you might insist, but the amount of times I've gone on about accomodating all the different playstyles and giving everyone the capability to have fun, you'd think it would have sunk in by now. It seems not. (See 'Not Listening').

sprite wrote:And I'm still waiting by the way.

Well you can apparently read for yourself, even if the information doesn't penetrate, so you can do so yourself.

sprite wrote:Btw, see what I did here? I replied to several posts at once...

Most other places I write this is considered bad practice and rude. You reply to each poster individually to allow the individual threads of conversation, point and counterpoint to continue without getting intermingled in other people's words. Its a courtesy to the person you're talking with so that they don't have to plough through other people's words and points to get to the part to do with them.

sprite wrote:Having said that, I am arguing with a man that thinks all atheists and agnostics are inherently and automatically morally superior to everyone on the planet who is religious, so tbh I don't hold much hope.

PM me if you actually want to discuss this, but it should be pretty easy to understand why that is.

grimjim wrote: Is it a _good_ solution?
No, not really, but it becomes a matter of RP purity and there are potential issues stored up by doing so - what happens if another temple type event comes along for example?
Been tempted a few times, but it has felt a bit too much like giving in to pressure and on any database of alignment for the server, it won't create the right impression.

I see. Then it s time for Neutral to become an effective status I guess. Only trouble is that even if GF/devs agree on making it move it will take a while because it would mean new TPs creation (of a totally new kind) and even more than that (Special grants/restrictions...)

As for your disbelief toward "RP motivation" only one thing to say : this is an mmoRPg , so, even if I don't understand the benefit of being neutral, I still see the argument "make Neutral a real status for the sake of RP" as a perfect argument

/totaly offtopic

jyu you believe in the whole RP neutral purity thing that you wont align, but on the same hand when neutrals get treated like neutrals and the factions take away their rewards, you think it would be RP pure for them to still carry on rewarding you?

strikes me as a contradiction tbh

moyaku wrote:I see. Then it s time for Neutral to become an effective status I guess. Only trouble is that even if GF/devs agree on making it move it will take a while because it would mean new TPs creation (of a totally new kind) and even more than that (Special grants/restrictions...)

As for your disbelief toward "RP motivation" only one thing to say : this is an mmoRPg , so, even if I don't understand the benefit of being neutral, I still see the argument "make Neutral a real status for the sake of RP" as a perfect argument

As I remind people constantly, it is an mmoRPg, but sometimes making up something to explain a 'gap' is a bit cheap, or 'Mary Sueing'. Sometimes its all we have (like my little scenario trying to rationalise Halloween Week).

This IS off topic now, but swiftly...

I can think of several, two really good, ways to reopen some existing TPs to neutrals through officialised RP. Seperate TPs might be even better, but would take dev time as you say, while reopening current ones requires less time and effort.

As to the original suggestion, barring stupidity or snark I'm going to leave it with this...

It WILL affect neutrals adversely and to anyone who doesn't think it's already a PITA I invite you to go neutral for a fortnight. Properly neutral. It won't affect your OP battles but you won't be able to tag, but you'll get a taste of the frustrations of running to high end downs, treking to (and through) the PR every time and the other problems. Barring extreme stubbornness I think that'll get through to most of 'em.

dakhound wrote:/totaly offtopic

jyu you believe in the whole RP neutral purity thing that you wont align, but on the same hand when neutrals get treated like neutrals and the factions take away their rewards, you think it would be RP pure for them to still carry on rewarding you?

strikes me as a contradiction tbh

PM me and I'll try to explain to you there. I'm leaving this thread with the challenge above for now.

It's time to have a break. There has been enough off-topic here.

Open a new thread if you want to discuss about neutrality.