Do we really need PvP?

[vutescu]

The subject with "I role-play an evil character" has been discussed a lot i think.
You say that your dumb Warrior have no brain and is solving all conflicts with fists. Fine. But why is smart enough to place "increased damage" over "bleeding" and complete them with a credit stanza? He have no brains, right?
You chose to play a psycho char. Well, is not that easy. You can't be bloodthirsty today and peacefull and nice tommorow. If you chose to play a role - good or evil - you must be in character.
There is a thin line here, and most of the people - usually pro-pvp-ers - don't see it. Or does not want to see it.
As long as game mechanics does not have a way to punish killing (prison, execution, fee), means that a open pvp game is practically a heaven for any psycho maniac. All he needs is to say "I'm playing Jack the Ripper" then start the killing spree.
The sense of apartence to a comunity exists to compensate the lack of law in game. You can't punish a killer, but you can isolate him with the community. The problem is that the number of them is increasing (see the members of Infinity, this challenged kid Audrey (do they beat you at school, kiddo?), that guy basicart... and a couple of others - can't remember the names now - and they tend to gather together.
This is the fist step in creation of pk squads. As long they are together they don't care anymore for being marginalised. So even that discutable punisment (isolation) stops to be a threat for them.
So think twice before defending something that tears the comunity apart. PK ruined Ultima and a couple of other games. You can't give someone a gun, to remove all the punishment for killing and to believe that he's not going to use it. Free PvP will lead to PK, griefing, hate, players leaving, and, eventually to a deserted word.

[grimjim]

I ended the comparison with pen&paper rpg with grimjim for a reason: in a pen&paper rpg session, we are half a dozen that often know each other. So of course we play in team, together, because we designed 6 characters sharing more or less the same goal. Now you're in a MMORPG with hundreds of other players that don't even connect together at the same time. You will likely have competitions in addition of teams.

You're forgetting Living campaigns where thousands of people across the world play in and modify the outcomes of a shared campaign world. Not to mention experiments like in L5R where the cardgame determined some of the TTRPG plot based on the outcome of tournaments - again thousands of people, or the two big WFRP battles for 40k and Fantasy where players determined the outcome.

And, of course, the LARP organisation I mentioned.

Now, there are other LARP organisations which are much more heavily PvP but these are largely centred _around_ the battles which are the whole point of those games for the rubber-sword brigade. That isn't the paradigm we're operating in here.

Regardless, the vast majority, of whatever size, deal with people coming together against an outside (NPC) threat.

Also Roleplay is to play a role. You can choose the role of a character nice with everybody, that wants peace and all. But you also can play a character that is stubborn, violent and sociopath. Why would you have to play a role according occidental ideals?
So if I decide to play a stupid warrior, others will likely laugh at his manner and lack of intelligence, but the stupid warrior may be upset to hear them laughing and hit them (because not able to resolve his problems through discussion).

When you take part in any RPG as a group activity (and they all are save for single player computer RPGs) You're not only agreeing to the EULA, you're also taking part in a tacit social contract with the other players to work together so that you all have fun, you're forming a community.

People don't play evil, they play 'teh 3vi1!!!!ONE!!!LOLOMGWTFBBQ!'

Playing someone who cannot be part of the 'group' (however big that is) who runs _entirely_ counter to any reasonable interpretation of the source material or who is only there it cause trouble is a violation of that social contract.

I just don't think Ashi gets it, or can get it.

MMORPGs really need to paradigm shift to get something new in there.

[thebax]

OOC:
The arguments against non-consensual PvP are, to me at least, far more compelling than those for it. Non-consensual PvP also includes PvP zones which contain unique game content not available outside that zone, such as supernodes. To argue otherwise is thoughtless, as Jyudas has so eloquently explained.

Luckily, homins have the ability to see which of their fellow homins have souls, ie. which are backed by players. Therfore, Baxter has something to say;


IC:
I be takin' an oath, afore de Kami, Karavan, Tryton, Homins o' Atys, an' who-all else mebbee gives a toss:

I ain' ne'er gonna attack a Homin wit a soul, an', I ain' gonna fights back aginst dem wot attacks me neither. Iffin I does gits inta a fight wit other be-souled folk on behalf o' me guild, I ain', unner any circumstances gonna do ought but heal.

Dis be me word, oath, an vow, an' all wot knows me, knows dat I ain' gonna breaks it.

[rushin]

my 2 dappers (possbily 3)

i don’t really follow these comments about excluding non PvP players. If i had a high level crafter i wouldn't be complaining that i was missing out on killing pr bosses because i had decided not to level my fighting skills, and equally if i was an AoD with no crafting skills there would be no reason to complain that i couldn't make q250 100/100 amps.

A MMORPG is like a children’s toy cupboard; there are lots of things u can pull out and play with. If you're really persistent you can play with them all but most will have a few favourites. Some of the toys only appeal to a minority; others are broken, missing pieces, etc, etc.

I strongly dislike this artificial divide that seems to be springing up in our community. We all inhabit the same world, Nevrax throw toys at us and we play with them. Not everyone has to appreciate everything but come on, there was this whole debate when umbra was made GvG, did they turn into a gank fest with high levels running around killing everyone? No. Not in the slightest. Have a little faith in each other. The success and enjoyment we all get from the game is ultimately down to each of us. The spirit and intentions of the community will be the defining factor in how things turn out. Getting upset/uptight on the forums about something that isn’t even implemented yet does nothing useful, being ingame and making Atys a place you want to live is much more constructive.

And @Baxter: good for you I know players who wont attack herbivoires, others who dont fight the primative tribes, not attacking fellow homins is probably a very real consideration for many that dont want to be involved in a faction war. However rushin is a Zorai for a reason, i've been waiting a year for conflict with the karavan.. I'm sure anyone that knows me ingame would laugh if u asked if i was a l33t kiddie, powerleveling, PKing, unfriendly monster but just as lot's say they came to Ryzom for the zero conflict PvE doesnt mean we all did..

[troll16]

my 2 dappers (possbily 3)

i don’t really follow these comments about excluding non PvP players. If i had a high level crafter i wouldn't be complaining that i was missing out on killing pr bosses because i had decided not to level my fighting skills, and equally if i was an AoD with no crafting skills there would be no reason to complain that i couldn't make q250 100/100 amps.

A MMORPG is like a children’s toy cupboard; there are lots of things u can pull out and play with. If you're really persistent you can play with them all but most will have a few favourites. Some of the toys only appeal to a minority; others are broken, missing pieces, etc, etc.

I strongly dislike this artificial divide that seems to be springing up in our community. We all inhabit the same world, Nevrax throw toys at us and we play with them. Not everyone has to appreciate everything but come on, there was this whole debate when umbra was made GvG, did they turn into a gank fest with high levels running around killing everyone? No. Not in the slightest. Have a little faith in each other. The success and enjoyment we all get from the game is ultimately down to each of us. The spirit and intentions of the community will be the defining factor in how things turn out. Getting upset/uptight on the forums about something that isn’t even implemented yet does nothing useful, being ingame and making Atys a place you want to live is much more constructive.

And @Baxter: good for you I know players who wont attack herbivoires, others who dont fight the primative tribes, not attacking fellow homins is probably a very real consideration for many that dont want to be involved in a faction war. However rushin is a Zorai for a reason, i've been waiting a year for conflict with the karavan.. I'm sure anyone that knows me ingame would laugh if u asked if i was a l33t kiddie, powerleveling, PKing, unfriendly monster but just as lot's say they came to Ryzom for the zero conflict PvE doesnt mean we all did..

Not sure I follow your arguement. In a full PvP enviroment it is possible to spoil someones game. Which, is why people joining full PvP usually know and except the risk. Some get fed up because they are not able to visit areas without getting killed so they leave the PvP server and go to an RP or PvE server. Some games have safeguards so that people cannot be picked on, this one does not.

If we are talking about PvE/PvP here with areas that are full PvP it could result in areas becoming no go areas for some players. How will it effect your game?

You seem to be concerned that there is tension building in the forums. Well ingame that's the whole point of PvP to create tension.

As for implementation, it's far easier not to do it than have to clean up the mess afterwards.

[grimjim]

I strongly dislike this artificial divide that seems to be springing up in our community. We all inhabit the same world, Nevrax throw toys at us and we play with them. Not everyone has to appreciate everything but come on, there was this whole debate when umbra was made GvG, did they turn into a gank fest with high levels running around killing everyone? No. Not in the slightest.

To an extent it did, and that has continued. Like the Aen etc drops it has had a very negative effect on the community. We don't really want any more of that.

[iphdrunk]

Some games have safeguards so that people cannot be picked on, this one does not.

If we are talking about PvE/PvP here with areas that are full PvP it could result in areas becoming no go area for some players. How will it effect your game?

don't forget the "PvP flag" announced and confirmed. You can "opt out". Of course, by opting out you may also be 'opting out' "PvP only" rewards, etc. we still don't know much about them rewards, but who knows?

[drizzeth]

don't forget the "PvP flag" announced and confirmed. You can "opt out". Of course, by opting out you may also be 'opting out' "PvP only" rewards, etc. we still don't know much about them rewards, but who knows?

Opting out PvP..mmm..that would solve this problem.
Anyway based on my experiance regarding current PvP zones i already sayed
that we all can have our toys to pay with, no reason to deny anyone any style of play.

Risen the next problem im sure roflol

Its not fair that you can get rewards for PvP only!!! roflol, do you hear the thread coming??

EDIT: a lot of people talk about toher MMO communities and compare them to Ryzom to forecast what will happen if PvP/Outposts/Kami-Karav story will all start.

MMO communities differ a lot, ive seen global chats filled with stuff that sounds like your standing on a crack streetcorner. And ive seen communities that are very nice and kind in general and everything in between.

Ryzom has a different community as for example Risc your Life, yes thank god! roflol Have a ittle more faith in your own community, it has proven for as long as the current pvp areas are there that there hardly is anything such as ganking pk-ers. Ryzom just because of its current comunity and the way pvp works doesnt attrack the kind of people most fear in the masses that they fear.

[uhuhu]

The subject with "I role-play an evil character" has been discussed a lot i think.
You say that your dumb Warrior have no brain and is solving all conflicts with fists. Fine. But why is smart enough to place "increased damage" over "bleeding" and complete them with a credit stanza? He have no brains, right?
You chose to play a psycho char. Well, is not that easy. You can't be bloodthirsty today and peacefull and nice tommorow. If you chose to play a role - good or evil - you must be in character.
There is a thin line here, and most of the people - usually pro-pvp-ers - don't see it. Or does not want to see it.
As long as game mechanics does not have a way to punish killing (prison, execution, fee), means that a open pvp game is practically a heaven for any psycho maniac. All he needs is to say "I'm playing Jack the Ripper" then start the killing spree.
The sense of apartence to a comunity exists to compensate the lack of law in game. You can't punish a killer, but you can isolate him with the community. The problem is that the number of them is increasing (see the members of Infinity, this challenged kid Audrey (do they beat you at school, kiddo?), that guy basicart... and a couple of others - can't remember the names now - and they tend to gather together.
This is the fist step in creation of pk squads. As long they are together they don't care anymore for being marginalised. So even that discutable punisment (isolation) stops to be a threat for them.
So think twice before defending something that tears the comunity apart. PK ruined Ultima and a couple of other games. You can't give someone a gun, to remove all the punishment for killing and to believe that he's not going to use it. Free PvP will lead to PK, griefing, hate, players leaving, and, eventually to a deserted word.

can i know one thing man/lady.. who are you inGame?

[ashitaka]

People don't play evil, they play 'teh 3vi1!!!!ONE!!!LOLOMGWTFBBQ!'

I'm utterly disgusted by that poor attempt to reduce evil RP to an excuse to PK, and I feel insulted.
People play 'teh 3vi1!!!!ONE!!!LOLOMGWTFBBQ!' in poor games.

That's stupid to continue any discussion with such a stubbron narrow-minded vision of the community. Cry on your server if you want, I don't care at all. Aniro has no "L33t kids" so after all I'm not concerned by your problems.
No I don't get it. I don't get your paranoia. Thank you.




That said, thank you madnak for all these precisions. I agree with most of the point and I hope R² will allow creative players to give more content to the others. For the emote, it becomes very frustrating when you are always *tries this...*, *tries that...*, and the other tells you "Well you know I'd like to win a bit even if I sew boots and you eat jugulas for breakfast...". And after a moment you are tired to take all the decisions by yourself and want to use the game mechanics to see how it's resolved. Otherwise we can play on IRC. You know what I mean.



For the Outposts: it won't be a PvP only feature. Other parts will be added later. Only military outposts are going to be launched. And by the way, diplomacy is not labelled PvM or PvP. It's RP and can be one of them both or none. It's not said it won't ever be diplomacy with outposts.