Ryzom

Neutrality as an equal option is strictly a forum driven phenomenon and has zero bases in anything ever written by the developers of this game.

Neutrality in this game is not a choice, it is a lack of a choice, it is the default setting. It is not more honorable, or morally superior to the factions. It is based in a delusional mindset that has nothing to do with the world of Atys. Everything, everything Homins have accomplished since the Kitin squashed the species is directly related to the benevolence/manipulations/whatever of one of the two factions. Homins are completely incapable of survival without them. Not paying at least lip service is suicidal, reckless and perilous.

They do not owe us anything. They do not need us (as far as we know anyway). They leave us, we are extinct.

In short, the neutral argument as I see it is "I'd rather my species be destroyed, then me having to thank or pay any sort of respect to those that keep me, my family, my culture, and everyone else alive."

I suppose there is something moral in that.

Pero

danolt wrote:Homins are completely incapable of survival without them.

When 'ya put it that way, makes me want to go neutral just because of my personal [lack of] beliefs


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I have nothing against neutrals getting access to PR teleports, as I've previously stated somewhere towards the beginning of this thread, if Kitin Patrols are released.

But, if Neutral gains access to the teleports, what do those that follow a religion then gain for their loyalty?

Oh! Had a crazy thought!

Hm, now that I said that. I guess you could pull in some real life here. What do normal humans gain from worshipping, say God? Nothing material.

So, taking that, why should homins that follow one of the K religions gain any special material things that the neutrals do not gain?

When it comes to following a faction (religion) it's supposed to be about faith. Not which religion gives the best material objects.

So, from that point of view..wouldn't it be right for neutrals to gain the same as one following one of the Ks? Heh, neutrals just shouldn't get the nifty afterdeath benefits, right? (No, i'm not talking about being rezed by the Ks)

--Yes, I know I went against my stay on topic post, but I sort of just thought that out while typing it, I couldn't help it--

d29565 wrote:Oh! Had a crazy thought!

Hm, now that I said that. I guess you could pull in some real life here. What do normal humans gain from worshipping, say God? Nothing material.

So, taking that, why should homins that follow one of the K religions gain any special material things that the neutrals do not gain?

When it comes to following due a faction (religion) it's supposed to be about faith. Not which religion gives the best material objects.

So, from that point of view..wouldn't it be right for neutrals to gain the same as one following one of the Ks? Heh, neutrals just shouldn't get the nifty afterdeath benefits, right? (No, i'm not talking about being rezed by the Ks)

Jena rewards her followers, in this life and the next. Why should the neutral heathens, the ones afraid to take that step towards the light and instead wallow in their grief, receive gifts from her heralds the Karavan?

Because I see nothing of their relevenace whatsoever, I won't discuss your "real life" considerations.

Furthermore, the Karavan are not objects of faith, they are protectors of hominkind, sent in the name of Jena. You suggest that neutrals should receive everything that the true followers of the Karavan receive, effectively reaping all the benefits without the commitment. I say no, the neutrals should not be able to take such advantage of them, including the PR teleports. There are two factions, each with their own teleports, so the options are pretty simple: choose a side, gain the benefits; don't choose a side, let life pass by you -- you do nothing for the side of the Kami or Karavan, and the Kami and Karavan don't show any special consideration for you. That's the point of factions, right?

One cannot cry "boo hoo" and suddenly rewrite the lore. (is that witty enough Jy? )

edit: this is mostly IC, believe me!

setstyle wrote:Jena rewards her followers [......] That's the point of factions, right?

You didnt' have to get all snippy with me, I could care less if neutrals gain access to PR teleports or not. I was simply putting another perspective out there. Jeez.

[edit] Also, whether or not you or anyone else wishes to take into consideration the "real life considerations" I mentioned, does not mean our real life attitudes do not affect our game play and the way we see the game.

...And Keiko and Siobhan could care less about what Jena does.

[edit]Oh my...I've become a forum something or other. Okay I'll try to make this one my last post here. I dont want to make enemies on forums *hugs*

aardnebb wrote:"bit of wasted time"

"deathport"

these are the bits that are the issue, if I deathport, I dont level. A bit of wasted time, multiplied by hundreds of bagfuls = a cr*pton of wasted time.

---- knows he's going way off topic himself ---

Actually, as a factoioned PR digger, I spend an awful lot of time doing just that, that's not only an option for neutrals, and yes levelling PR dig is slower, especially when it's your ONLY >200 dig. As it is in my case.

The weather affects us all, most of the aggro does too until you learn about it, the only really hard part is wastelands, and that's a pain for neutrals more especially due to the aggro walls I agree. The rest of PR is not really much harder without the tps tbh.

EF/ToT/GoO are cake without tps and not so much extra time getting about it's half as fast to level, I spend a GOOD bit of time running all about looking for any old mat that will fit what I craft grind atm, and that's going to apply if you get one tp in or not (the EF kara tp is the same as the nexus portal (neutral friendly one -- plus a five minute run tops when you learn the way), and when I don't want to waste time sneaking, I death port intentionally, it gets me the mats faster), I used to dig with neutrals in those zones without trouble...

Another way to balance this would have been to fix the wastelands run in from the portal, not remove the KP's (were they in wastelands ? I forget it's been so long and i was but a wee homin then).

They could as easily have moved the portal/aggro in wastelands or thinned it a bit so there's still a challenge to sneaking (by 200+ in dig you'd best learn how to sneak or it's off no matter whether you have tp's or not). We only get ONE per zone, and often one faction or the other is at the opposite end from the good mats/bosses. So, we got 'nerfed' too, let's remember that .

Nearly half the times i just need some grind resin i go via nexus try to run it, or get bored and aggro a few mobs then death port, go dig a bag and the dp is gone and I get some xp to boot, so realistically it's really only another 10 minutes out of your day when you learn the route to get into a 250 PR zone from a neutral friendly tp. That 10 minutes is all it takes from the kara nexus tp to the portal and the mats, DP free if you're good at it. IN fact, for some mats, I know i'll be the only one getting the sups when the weather allows it, as in some seasons no player can dig in all the aggro without dying, so you just learn to deal with dp, or avoid those spots .

Anyhow, I do lots of death porting/dying from PR aggro as a factioned digger, we don't have it anywhere as rosy as some of you think . Except, I'd agree wastelands is pretty rough without a tp in ... and can be fixed in another way.

Anyhow, since this wasn't started as a discusssion of how hard it is to be neutral, but was about KP's and jack already clearly explained why it won't be nearly as bad as first stated by jim, let's get on topic, wanna get the devs to let us vote on the neutral PR tp thing as I suggested 5 pages ago, and be done with it? I'll vote for the vote if those who feel 'nerfed' agree that the community gets to decide it, and how it will be it will be... and we don't have to have this discussion again k? or is that too fair?

---- back on original topic -----------

Back to the point, i was just saying it would be how nice to see the KP's back, and as Spriteh and Jack pointed out they aren't going to affect anyone any more than anyone else if they did it right.. any chance of getting back to that? (as I derail it myself by 300 more words lol). I thought that was the case, as a new homin i'd ventured in near portals and never met a patrol up close and personal like, and we could easily add a little fake 1000m safe zone around the portal and they'd be no worse for anyone.... in fact, that doesn't exclude the TP's so they could be nastier for us 'oh so lucky' in your minds factioned players .

Oo... I'm surprised. The clidren in Africa still starving, boys. HEre we aren't speaking of ethics or moral, only from an IG point of view, but sometimes it appears that you are taking out to RL. Please, don't do that, or we'll need the Godwin's Law in a few post.

jared96 wrote:it would be naive not to expect those disadvantaged players to migrate to another game where they are not penalized for making an ethical choice.

Not an ethical choice, please. A gamestile choice. You can prefer RP than PvP and that doesn't make you a better people. Maybe you are a serial killer RPing being a good person.

I'm surprised with the strange moral superiority of a gamestile. If I don't blink in Poker I'm morally superior too? I never think that ethics was so easy!

mugendo wrote:A Neutral person has their own allegiances and agenda that does not conform to the two 'recognised' factions.
And now for the important difference.............a neutral person does not necessarily have the same allegiance and agenda as another neutral, also there is no common rally call or leader to follow.

Therefore they cannot be treated as a collective group all chasing the same dream.
And there lies the flaw if neutral were referred to as a faction.

As far as I'm a Karavan (And I love my faction) I'm not interested personally in that, but I see one point: there are a damn lot of neutrals IG, that's true. Not only in forums (Even if the most whinning ones are here xD). They are a group. Maybe not a faction, but a group op people, of users, who make her choice of nor making a choice (A legit option who you can take with the same effor than the others).

As a game of people, is the managers & devs work satisfice this group of people with theyr option. Not giving him the benefits of being a sepparate group united, but with the benefits of being a big base of people who don't necessary work together but recognices each another.

It's a good option, man. More variety. BTW, don't made a mistake mixing Neutrals and PvErs, that really is a forum-based effect (Better, AFAIK, a Jyudas-based effect). There are OP taken by neutrals... How that neutrals get the OP? Strongly staring with fixed eyes until the last Guild left the OP ashamed for him to take? I doubt it.

Hardly neutrals could be a forum based option with 4 or 5 OPs taken by him. Damn! In aris they are almost even with kamis!

With a good and health economy (Witch is not the case) could even be mercenary guilds.

So, neutrals is a natural option, and even when he migth not have special options, the devs migth care them a little to be as confortable as any other paying user, I think.

In support of the OP: please bring back the Patrols!

People seem to be focusing sooooo much on levelling as being fun and have forgotten that the best fun they ever had was when they were little and eventually managed to do something that they found outrageously difficult; like run past the kincher portal guards at the region entrance while their buddies sacrificed themselves as a diversion for just a fraction of a second. Only to get chomped into little pieces moments later by the roaming KP and have to try again

I noticed in the latest patch that Atys has become easier, yet again, to travel around. Sneaking through Heretics Hovel and Loria and Bounty Beaches has never been so easy. This is dull. I think it's time for the mob AI to be improved instead of stripping out the aggro walls that were a challenge to pass. A group of homins should attract more attention than a lone sneaker, yet creatures and kitin especially should be aware of character levels and associated risk.

On neutrality; as some have said, it isn't a faction. For newcomers it may be a lack of choice, for others it is most definitely a choice. In my case it was a roleplay choice, which I then found had some teleport benefits that suited my gamestyle as part compensation for losing others. *shrugs*

setstyle wrote:Jena rewards her followers, in this life and the next. Why should the neutral heathens, the ones afraid to take that step towards the light and instead wallow in their grief, receive gifts from her heralds the Karavan?

[...]

Ok then, Jena rewards only followers and belivers but Kami protect all forms of life on Atys so if they are kindly asked by some of their favourites tribes, they could share the tps

After all they allowed karavaneers to use magic, while magic should be granted only to "belivers", right?

===
Hope you (still) can take a joke...
Anyway...there is that little thing under your "Help" button saying "suggestions". What about using it (for pro or cons).

Actually bringing back kitin patrols would likely annoy folks more than offer a challenge or add fun.

To established PR masters it would be a mild inconvenience, ultimatly adding very little, save on a few now safer spots to become more dangeous.

However the effect on newer PR diggers this would ad increased difficulty (if searching for rather than just lvling on the safest spots) to the extent that the frustration may turn them away from the game.

The Kitin patrols are from what i recall only in the non-pvp PR regions, so those wishing to avoid kitin patrols may have to risk gankage instead, again not an ideal introduction to PR.

The situation with a return of kitin patrols would lower the enthusiasm for the PR, also i believe that roaming named were not a feature during the time of patrols, thus the PR would be more dangerous. The PR diggers would become more than now the old guard of PR foragers with less newer diggers having the patience to level in the face of such odds especially when the found spot has been emptied already.

The current situation of 'easy' PR makes for more player competion to gather limited resources, such as the race for materials and bosses on a reboot, or supreme materials on a season change.

Over the past few month i can't say i've seen very many new PR diggers emerges in the 250 zones, other than beavering away at the local tp spots lvling up, to do anything to hinder their progression would be wrong imo.

dakhound wrote:/ok rant on
this still doesnt mean you should be entitiled to it all back because they re-introduce a few mobs back into PR to make it more challenging,

Quite right. We should have it anyway. This would just be another kick in the teeth though and a further swing away from good practice.

dakhound wrote:and ffs why do you even care you never go there, dig there, fight there.

*Spitting Mongoose Sarcasm Technique!*
Gee... I wonder WHY...

dakhound wrote:you are whinging for the damn sake of it, you say the same BS over and over and over, have you noticed its only a few of your own guild who agree with you, have you noticed 99% of the community think your wrong, have you noticed that your so wrong that ppl love to argue with you so you can make a bigger fool out of yourself. For god sake stop it, no-one gives a rats ass for your cause/opinion. You have managed to destroy/derail more threads on this forum than any single person (including LT/jayce/spriteh).

And their contribtutions are so stellar aren't they? You lot are always bashing, you make no attempt whatsoever to understand the other side's point of view and you bash things that don't actually affect you. You're so fixated on your silly 'winning' point of view that you can't take a wider view of things that are good for everyone or that make the game enjoyable for a broader spectrum and thus help it succeed as a whole.

From my experience its YOU lot who are the minority, dragging people along in your comet tail because they've simply given up or, worse yet, have been driven off. You create an impression and a self-fulfilling prophecy of yet another spite-filled, selfish, kiddie-ridden PvP game. Like the world needs another one of those.