Ryzom

sprite wrote:Name three in this thread who did it when there were KPs and are still doing it now, and I'll shut up on this topic.

well, i don't know to many, i agree with you there, and also, was just was on the drunk-duck forums and saw that kami means god in japanese, >here<

mithur wrote:Why the neutrals can't get PR tps? The lore could be easily done, making the kara or the kamis allow them to bring nearer to their side (The other faction could allow other things), and i don't see any damage to factioned in it. But, after all, I've been playing only six months or so, so maybe I'm losing something.

I keep seeing this lore argument.
There was no lore argument for taking them away in the first place. It just happened. People seem to be under the illusion that the original decision to go neutral was made in the current situation or that this change somehow fits the lore.

Oh dear Shads XD

You do so crack me up

grimjim wrote:There was no lore argument for taking them away in the first place.

True. Simply, the TPs distribution and a few other things were aspects of the game that were planned although not ready for the rushed release. As other things, it was added later. IIRC it was stated that the way it is now is the way it was supposed to be, we even got some communication saying that their (some of) activation was tied to events.

In short, any lore quote to explain something that changed this way is bound to be half-baked. In theory, you have to have a well defined lore and develop game mechanics and game rules accordingly. In practice they both change, sometimes with less-than-desirable results, and in some cases they change for some-unknown god raining and all sides can fetch lore explanations for them. In other cases the overall balance is tied to things that are missing such spires. At the end, it is possible to look at the game state at a given time and decide (or change) accordingly.

That said, I agree with you on the thing that it is always a bad strategy to remove things from the game, but let me note that it not only affected neutrals, Karavan players lost Kami ones and viceversa. Whether it was balanced or not, it's a subject to be discussed.

As stated several times, the word Neutral can be used to define a lot of things. Do I consider them a faction? no, at least, not in the state the game is now - A Trytonist faction with similar "entry" rites and so on, yes - A RP stance? yes.

iphdrunk wrote: As stated several times, the word Neutral can be used to define a lot of things. Do I consider them a faction? no, at least, not in the state the game is now - A Trytonist faction with similar "entry" rites and so on, yes - A RP stance? yes.

As I see it, we can approach from two sides. One, is the game mechanics. Ok, isn't a faction. Neutrals are what it is when you haven't chosen a faction. But several people, a significan number (Damn, if they even have some good OPs), have chosen be Neutral.

So, IMHO, the devs must give accomodation, *good* accomodation to this group to become a faction (Or, better, a group of little factions, not needely united among them, but with a big amount of people). This is, make that group be confortable. That would allow feel to some players that, even if the Atys history was thinked in a way, the players choices can change it.

From the lore point of view is even simpler: A lot of people don't want to ally with the Ks, so the Ks try to get them to their side. And, even if they don't do that, a group big enough will find their resources.

Probably they'll never be a a faction in the OP wars, probably they'll never be so united as the Karavan Alliance, but, anyway, they'll find their ways, and they'll make their own archievements.

So, AFAIK, could be a good think that the devs acknowledge the neutrals as another option (I say option, because is not a faction, more of a bunch of little factions with different tendecys).

nillian wrote:I'll report my findings in a seperate thread for anyone who is interested. Perhaps some other factioned PR diggers would like to join me on a week of "being a neutral PR digger" ? Might be a nice idea to allow us to truly see it from their side.

*hugs*

Sounds intriguing... and yay for a new thread on a new topic . Depends how much I can tear myself away from (some other non-ryzom game) this week, i may be up for it! I've led treks for new diggers in EF/ToT/GoO, sometimes just barely making it, but once in any of those areas, it's a cakewalk to get around naked as you say (sneaking > fighting in PR imho).

grimjim wrote:I keep seeing this lore argument.
....or that this change somehow fits the lore.

It DOES fit the current lore.
I have yet to see you explain why the Higher Powers would teleport neutrals or opposing factions. They would need more motivaiton than just the dapper alone.

You have also yet to explain what reward a faction should give out, if TPs shouldn't be one of them.

In short, it seems you were fine with being neutral when it didn't cost you anything, and it netted you the all-powerful moral supieriority.
Now that there is a tangible benefit to taking a side in the conflict, you are a bit upset that you don't get to be part of it. Really, though, you are looking at the wrong conflict.

You have it as:

High level TPs VS No High Level TPs

When you should be viewing it as:

Able to cast moral aspersions VS High level TPs.

You see, in the former equation, it is Have/Have-not. In the latter it is win/win. Once again, it is all a matter of attitude.

mrshad wrote:It DOES fit the current lore.
I have yet to see you explain why the Higher Powers would teleport neutrals or opposing factions. They would need more motivaiton than just the dapper alone.

Well if spires are dead, we factioned folk don't suffer/benefit as much as originially designed and intended before... well, yeah, big deal.

But anyway, your comment about dappers made me think: if neutrals ever _do_ get access to the PR TP's, they shouldn't get them for the same cost. Instead, there should be either a huge mark-up at only certain TP's, or some other cost of payment. Howabout this:

Mr. Neutral: hey man, give me a TP ticket! Neutral characters are unjustly punished, downtrodden by the game mechanics, and --

Mr. Karavan: quiet down and stop your whining. You want to use that Karavan alter in the Roots? Then dig me 300 choice Prime Root mats of quality 150 while you're down there. And then maybe I'll let you use it again later for another batch of materials, if you fulfill your part.

Eh? You get access to that region, you have to use your time down there for the service of the one that teleported you. I think that still fits the lore.

iphdrunk wrote:That said, I agree with you on the thing that it is always a bad strategy to remove things from the game, but let me note that it not only affected neutrals, Karavan players lost Kami ones and viceversa. Whether it was balanced or not, it's a subject to be discussed.

But retained access to all areas. Retained the options. Losing city access, 250 access and PR access all in one fell swoop takes a lot away. Losing half your access points but still getting easy access to the areas doesn't compare.

nillian wrote:I'm going to try it during the next week, to refresh my memory of what it's like without PR TPs. I'm going to trek as if I were a neutral to all my regular digging spots, and then do the same again with my future digging spots (which I've already picked *grin*) in Wastelands and Underspring. I want to see for myself (and prove/disprove) the theory that it's not actually any harder, just takes a little more time. And given that the weather in PR is a total PITA, even if it actually takes any longer overall on average. I'll report my findings in a seperate thread for anyone who is interested. Perhaps some other factioned PR diggers would like to join me on a week of "being a neutral PR digger" ? Might be a nice idea to allow us to truly see it from their side.

As you well know the issues with PR access have been behind several people leaving the guild over time (either temporarily or permanently). For the full experience people need to genuinely go neutral, thereby losing easy access to cities and 250 hunt/dig spots as well.

'A little more time' is a 'harder' factor and a 'frustration' factor.