Ryzom

This is just my opinion. It could be 100% wrong. I could be completely off-base and I may just be talking to myself (as often seems to happen out here). There are points in here that have already been raised by others. But I thought that it would make sense to put it in one big post.

Yes, an open-source client *could* work. There's no doubt about it. The strength of the team managing it and the effectiveness of the change control would determine how well it worked, but it certainly could work at some level.

The problem isn't the client. It's the servers on the backend. I don't claim to know how the whole mess is architected but from the occassional error messages, it appears that there is a single large server or cluster of servers used for client validation (and probably accounting/billing/etc.) and then another one for each of the game environments. All appear to be driven off of a set of monolithic databases. I would guess that there would be a considerable rewrite required to turn this into a distrubuted environment. Even if it could be done, as an open-source game, the backend would then become highly susceptible to tampering and the integrity of the game goes away. No matter how many checks and balances are put into place there will always be someone smart enough to mess with them. The only way to prevent it is to keep centralized control of the backend.

The practical community alternative is that the game becomes instanced and you have little 8-16 player implementations and no more MMORPG. Not much value to that in my book. But maybe others would appreciate it.

Anyways...back to my original premise a few dozen messages ago. If people believe that the game is going to get trashed in the transition, then there needs to be a dialog between Nevrax's creditors (or buyer) and the community to 1) keep the current infrastructure (or some stripped down version of it) running and 2) restructure it to keep it viable going forward. If the game isn't profitable, then there needs to be some plan put together to make it profitable. That would require access to the financials and an understanding of the current organization and infrastructure.

Essentially, I think that there needs to be some organized front/represetnation approaching this from a business perspective. Based on the bickering that I see in the forums, I don't know that this would ever be possible. I don't know if the game is at risk, but many of you seem to beleive that it is. If it *is* at risk, then that dialog needs to be started fairly quickly. If they throw the switch on the game, starting it back up again probably won't be possible.

As for email addresses going astray, how much code would cost, whether or not ryzom.org is a scam or not....well....They're important issues, but I think that the bigger one is how to keep Ryzom going as a game and as a community (and, if we need to do anything at all).

Anyways....just another two cents.

Let me make one thing clear, this is a last resort option, with that said I want to point out that from the official forums we have seen a lot of polarized opinions on the viability of something like this and had some good points as to what open source code projects have worked.

Now in the long run, this idea would imho, degrade to separate servers for each of the "Political" groups and what they want to see happen to the development of our beloved game but there is an interesting alternative to this.

For those familiar with a game named UrU, from Cyan the company that has developed the Myst franchise, the MMORPG version went dark a number of years ago but a dedicated group of the players got the source code handed to them (Free, no buy out from a bank, mind you) and set up private servers and even created player made "Ages", this continued for about 2 years when a company (Turner GameTap) became interested, the amount of players that still played on the private servers impressed them enough to resurrect the game on the GameTap Network.

Believe me when I say that a solid company getting a hold of Ryzom and moving forward with a good business plan and a good amount of international advertising is what we all really need but, if the worst happened and no bailout or buyout occurred, the UrU model of survival may be our "Last, Best, Hope".

We have had assurances that there were more than one company and a few individuals interested in the rights to our beloved game, let us all hope that they will come to the forefront and rescue us all in the nick of time..... but......... keep in mind it could come to us all being the rescuers.

Not to add to the discussion, but there's three things.

One, don't dismiss community projects outright. Wikipedia works, and it's a huge undertaking. I will freely admit that a free (as in speech) MMO has not been tried, but there's a first time for everything. Yes, people would still need to pay to play to keep the servers running (see Wikipedia which requires a MASSIVE infrastructure), and there would have to be an "author team" and some comparatively tight control over the creative process for the official game servers, but that's certainly not impossible and not in conflict with the "free software" idea.

Two, Ryzom has clearly been a commercial failure. I would not get my hopes too high on any company buying it and just continuing. Sure, you may just see management and marketing improved. But just as well the new company could just want to take ryzom apart and use the engine/technology for their Next Hot Game and let Ryzom die. I have no special insight on either side of the fence; I just want to remind you all that just because a company may want to buy Ryzom this doesn't mean certain salvation either.

Three, I must say I am appalled at how the organizers of ryzom.org are being called "swindlers" here, without any actual information - proof - to back that up. There ARE libel and slander laws in Europe, you know. So it seems to me that even if the claims were true this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Obviously there is a history between the ryzom.org guys and the Neverax people; but really, must we sink so low and call each other thieves, swindlers, and what not?

If you have clear evidence that ryzom.org is a scam, present it. Unfounded allegations are bad and just undermine any valid opinion you may have.

- Nils

I second that wonderful post.

I have see no evidence that Ryzom.org is a scam.
However I have seen no evidence that Ryzom.org is going to be good for the game.
In fact, in the words of all the SOE haters - If Ryzom.org buy Nevrax, I will quit

Simply put, I dont like the way the company was set up. I will not give my credit card details to someone who seems to have stolen player information from when he worked at Nevrax. I dont like the fact that people who do not play ryzom seem to be creating free trial accounts to tell the real players of Ryzom what a good idea this is (not saying everyone is doing this but have seen at least one person). I also dont like the fact that these people are ex-employees, that doesnt seem good to me, it seems like there is a reason they are ex-employees.

myseren wrote:I have see no evidence that Ryzom.org is a scam.
However I have seen no evidence that Ryzom.org is going to be good for the game.

Good as keeping a game alive, good as making a great effort to create a sustainable paid service, robust as the one you're playing now, although developement would be fronzen until some developper effort could be coordinated.

Have you seen NeL source code? Quoting a 3D engine specialist I personally know, the source code is at least messy. Imagine what could that mean for the game code, now imagine how long it would take any new company to *start* implementing new features... you'll probably end up with a frozen version of Ryzom for a while, no matter who ends up buying the project.

myseren wrote:In fact, in the words of all the SOE haters - If Ryzom.org buy Nevrax, I will quit

Simply put, I dont like the way the company was set up. I will not give my credit card details to someone who seems to have stolen player information from when he worked at Nevrax. I dont like the fact that people who do not play ryzom seem to be creating free trial accounts to tell the real players of Ryzom what a good idea this is (not saying everyone is doing this but have seen at least one person). I also dont like the fact that these people are ex-employees, that doesnt seem good to me, it seems like there is a reason they are ex-employees.

rheda wrote: Have you seen NeL source code? Quoting a 3D engine specialist I personally know, the source code is at least messy. Imagine what could that mean for the game code, now imagine how long it would take any new company to *start* implementing new features... you'll probably end up with a frozen version of Ryzom for a while, no matter who ends up buying the project.

Not if a big company buys the game, because they will, surely, maintain the devs. With adjustments, but maintaining them.

In the other hand, I'm developer, but i don't care a damn if the code is a mess. Moreover, NeL has been GPL from the start, and that haven't save it from being messy. I don't think that make the whole game GPL will repair that. I think it'll go worst.

But I care about the service and the equilibrium more than the code. And I think that a big company taking the game "as is", even with the devs will be better than a "group of friends" with pledges buying the corpse of the company and trying to do something whit that.

mithur wrote:Not if a big company buys the game, because they will, surely, maintain the devs. With adjustments, but maintaining them.

That is probably true, they'll have to keep the devs, in order to avoid this development freezing. I can't argue on that.

mithur wrote:In the other hand, I'm developer, but i don't care a damn if the code is a mess. Moreover, NeL has been GPL from the start, and that haven't save it from being messy. I don't think that make the whole game GPL will repair that. I think it'll go worst.

Well, do you think there's any way to rewrite such work from zero? As a dev, you know the answer. But on the other hand, there's been people involved who have actually done a good work on bugfixing afaik.

mithur wrote:But I care about the service and the equilibrium more than the code. And I think that a big company taking the game "as is", even with the devs will be better than a "group of friends" with pledges buying the corpse of the company and trying to do something whit that.

rheda wrote:Good as keeping a game alive, good as making a great effort to create a sustainable paid service, robust as the one you're playing now, although developement would be fronzen until some developper effort could be coordinated.

Have you seen NeL source code? Quoting a 3D engine specialist I personally know, the source code is at least messy. Imagine what could that mean for the game code, now imagine how long it would take any new company to *start* implementing new features... you'll probably end up with a frozen version of Ryzom for a while, no matter who ends up buying the project.

Are you sure as a supporter of the ryzom.org project you meant to say that the base GPL NeL engine, which was developed by the 'free software' community is buggy and would require a long time to *start* implementing new features.

If your talking about the Nevrax commercial code wasn't this worked on/developed by the ex-Nevrax employees who are being portrayed as the saviours of the Ryzom at 'Ryzom.org'.

I have read the stuff on ryzom.org and I have drawn conclusions on what I can see there.

How I read their plan, please correct me if I am in anyway incorrect. (Its my interpritation remember).

-Ryzom.org uses public donations to buy the assests of Nevrax.
-Ryzom.org places some/all of these assests in the public domain (GPL).
-Private investors and (some of the) members of Ryzom.org make a 'company' which makes a commercial product out of the GPL version of Ryzom and any assets that were retained by the purchaser of Nevrax.
-This 'company' then uses this commercial product and provides a service to the public, for private return.
(This service consists of a single server, with no development support, and Customer support provide by volunteers.
This will be a new server AFAIK, but I guess some people might get characters uploaded.
If Ryzom.org win all current characters will belong to them along with the player account database, etc.)

My concerns are that I can't see anywhere on Ryzom.org that states 'Ryzom.org' is a legal entity. Therefore who will the assests of Nervax legally belong to prior to them being 'given to the public domain'.

Will the account database be put in the public domain or will it be retained for personal gain by key members of the 'Ryzom.org' team. This is probably the second most valuable asset Nervax owns IMHO.

My opinion:
'Ryzom.org' is a wonderful public relations excercise.
'Ryzom.org' is a great way to collect/use other peoples money to buy the assets and allow a (seperate) group of people to create a commercial venture at a greatly reduced cost for their personal gain.
'Ryzom.org' is not IMO about saving Ryzom and the exisiting worlds for the players, its about giving the GPL community developers access to an MMO under GPL and laying the foundations for a commercal venture to profit out of.

One thing that still puzzles me and I have yet to find the answer to, NeL the game engine requires a 150,000 euro licence to be used in a commercial product. Does 'Ryzom.org' gain this licence when they buy the assets from Nevrax and if not where will the corperate 'Ryzom.org' find the funds to cover this one cost?

Will future commercial use of the GPL Ryzom require a similar licence?

If Ryzom.org win all current characters will belong to them along with the player account database

That's not true, players will be the owners of their datas as mentionned on ryzom.org