Ryzom

malkor wrote:I guess you're right, it is fun and games for me. I'd suspect that's because Ryzom is a game, and it's fun. If you disagree, feel free. I've simply found that in this game, with how long it takes to get things fixed, it's more constructive to enjoy what you have rather than worrying about perfecting things. That's all I'll say. Be happy!

Unfortunately what is there for ranged, is absolutely broken. It may not delete your character or cause you to crash, but it is indeed broken. Range is currently in worse shape than it was during very old versions of beta. During beta it still did useless damage, but....
*ammo crafting was free money due to a bug.
*AOE was th eway things worked and groups would go out to do AOE fights with multiple mobs.
*Melee was crippled with the same very slow attack speed and very expensive +hitrate bricks.
*It was known that non magic combat was broken and Nevrax was "working to fix it".

During FBT Nevrax removed the +hitrate bricks and raised the base speed of melee attacks (X hpm hit faster, not weapons got higher hpm value). Nevrax unfortunately forgot to raise the base speed of ranged weapons and ignored posts saying as much. They did manage to remove the 30+KM range on ranged weapons though and drop it down to the current 30-40ish meter range that it has now.

PDF on a 120mm mortar round. Range 7-12Km weight 33 Pounds (i.e. ~15Kg)
PDF about 81mm and 60mm mortar rounds... ~9 pounds for 81mm rounds and about 3.7 pounds for a 60mm mortar round.

Unsupprisingly enough, Nevrax does not feel it to be a bug or typo that the weight/burden of launcher and autolauncher ammo is similar to that of the 81mm and 120mm rounds. The weight might be justified if they had the same sort of massive lethal blast, but they don't.. they are pathetic jokes.

jgi47ak wrote:I wish I had more time so I could respond quicker but I'll try to respond to most things said so far.

usinuk, I know I was wasting mats using q80 ammo in a q50 gun. I was just trying to show that at lev 55 range I could do more damage than a lev 55 elemental mage fairly (and see if tetra looked into range enough before he started whining about it to know that q80 ammo in a q50 gun would only do as much damage as the lev 55 shooter or q50 gun would allow).

Actually I made an issue of that earlier and was flamed over it earlier in this very thread by a bunch of folks... Max damage is capped, but there is a minimum damage for ammo.

To tetra, I don't carry 22 shots on my character. I carry 12 shots taking 180 bulk and another 12 on my packer with the rest of the packer's space to hold ammo mats so I can craft more ammo in between fights.

wow... that must make you really useful in a group, trip, event, or anything else

Acid 6 first becomes avialable to an elemental mage at level 55 doing 195 damage. Even with 100% elemental damage amps, I would still be doing more damage than the lev 55 mage and my shots would stick more often than the spells would.

A mage would be using a range credit and possibly a small time credit to still nuke faster than you are shooting with max +hitrate. Not only would they have a higher DPS due to the higher ROF, they would be using VASTLY lower hp/sap compared to the hp/stam of a ranged fighter with a launcher.

To everyone, I'm sure at lev 100+ levels an elemental mage can do more damage than a range fighter but I have only claimed that right now at lev 55, I can do way more damage than a lev 55 elemental mage.

Ranged is even more of a joke after 100 than it is before 100, it really is sad watching someone try to defend it.

jgi47ak wrote:To Rogmar the Fyros Heavy Gunman, I plan on doing a similar experiment with my rifle and I'll post the results soon.

To everyone, I'm sure at lev 100+ levels an elemental mage can do more damage than a range fighter but I have only claimed that right now at lev 55, I can do way more damage than a lev 55 elemental mage.

Ivarion
Gladius Jenae(hopefully)

Aye, i used to try to make the same claim about 50-100 range, it seems great at start, but then nuking shoots up exponentially while range climbs a very steady slope
As for rifle, launcher seems great damage but once you step to rifle, it seems like a pistol, damage is horrible and doesnt hit (dodged/parried/maybe missed) pretty often, i tried launcher after rifle, it seemed like huge damage, but im still not going to use a launcher, it's the rifle for me, and i shouldnt penalized because of my preference

Not to get in the middle of a brewing flame war on ranged (been there, done that), but a couple more notes...

jgi47ak wrote:I'm sure at lev 100+ levels an elemental mage can do more damage than a range fighter but I have only claimed that right now at lev 55, I can do way more damage than a lev 55 elemental mage

"So, acid 7 = 42 hpm * 400 = 16800 DPM
q70 launcher = 22 hpm * 576 = 12676 DPM"

Since you seem to have missed it, highlighted the level for you. I've just shown how elemental mages hit harder at least 30 levels earlier than 100.

If I take your 99% damage q55 launcher number of 476 (this is why I try to do the comparisons at 70/120 - anything but qlx0 is really hard to get numbers for), and use acid 6 the DPM numbers work out to:

42 * (195*1.67) = 13677 DPM
22 * 476 = 10472 DPM

So, no, on a DPM basis mages still do significantly more damage at level 55.

jgi47ak wrote:(I) plan on doing a similar experiment with my rifle

I only ask you understand what you're testing.

Since I've just shown that an elemental mage absolutely does more damage with similar equipment at q55, what I'm guessing you're really testing is that:

"a solo level 55 ranged fighter using launcher ammo can kill 4 scary gingos easier than a solo level 55 elemental mage."

'Easier' is a tough term. But what you also need to do to make your results relevant (versus trolling for something that would get tetra fuming) are:

1. experiment enough times to show what happens when you get a bad string of misses, which even with acc attack happens

2. experiment pulling more than 1 mob (which becomes hugely significant if you miss and they're not tightly gathered on the way to you so the AOE doesn't hit more than 1)

3. experiment with non-aggro mobs with significantly higher hps so they don't die on the way, and need to do #1 and #2 to see the effect of a large group of, oh, kitins on you

In addition, if you want to be fair you should be doing a teamed elemental mage versus a teamed elemental fighter as your other control.

Have fun switching from a couple lines that got way too easy to level thanks to patch 1 to one that is broken. I got better things to do than get sucked into this debate.

Usinuk, acid 7 is only avialable at lev 70 elemental mage. A level 55 elemental mage compared to my lev 55 range fight would have acid 6 with a base damage of 195 at a base cast speed of 2.8 seconds. Scary Gingos are level 75 and Baying gingos are level 59. On a DPM comparison I do way more damage than a level 55 elemental mage. Not only is your DPM calculation assuming that every elemental spell cast by the lev 55 elemental mage would stick on a level 75 gingo (which I doubt very much), but it's assuming that they have access to acid 7. Also, it sounds like you don't know how launchers work. When you're in range to hit multiple targets, its munition shoots one rocket at each target. I didn't miss your DPM comparison, I ignored it.

However, it is true that magic quickly deals more damage than ranged fight. I really think that magic should do more damage than fight skills though. Imagine if a fighter wearing heavy armor could do just as much damage as a mage. If both did equal DPM but the fighter could do so wearing heavy armor and the mage couldn't, there would be no reason to be a mage.

To Rogmar, here is a short experiment with rifle:
You attack Scary Gingo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 131 points of damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 131 points of damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 107 points of damage.
Scary Gingo attacks you.
the Scary Gingo hits your head for 148 damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 68 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 74 points of damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's head for 131 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo is no longer stunned.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 98 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack
You miss Scary Gingo.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 131 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 131 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary GIngo's front legs for 109 points of damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 97 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 88 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo hits your feet for 125(164) damage.
the Scary Gingo has dodged your attack.
You hit Scary Gingo but do no damage.
You hit Scary Gingo's front legs for 131 points of damage.
You have killed the Scary Gingo.
You gain 3000 experience points in '2 Handed Range Fight'.
You target a Scary Gingo.
You attack Scary Gingo.
the Scary Gingo has dodged your attack.
You hit Scary Gingo but do no damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 131 points of damage.
Scary Gingo attacks you.
the Scary Gingo hits your chest for 165(219) damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 131 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingos attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 104 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 131 points of damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 131 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 113 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 131 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You have used your last ammo.
You hit the Scary GIngo's rear legs for 131 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
This weapon needs ammo.
You equip with your Stylone Piercing Ammo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 106 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo hits your legs for 177(235) damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 131 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo hits your hands for 100(133) damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's head for 131 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo hits your chest for 147(195) damage.
the Scary Gingo's combat skills are no longer subject to penalty.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 131 points of damage.
You have killed the Scary Gingo.
You gain 3000 experience points in '2 Handed Range Fight'.

I used q80 rifle with 16 hits/minute and range 30.5 with 99% damage choice q80 piercing ammo. I used medium armor.

On the first gingo, I used the attack stanza I use for launcher fighting (hitrate+5 accurate attack 4 stam47(25) hp24(13)). I shot 16 times costing a total of 752 stam and 384 hp (my ballance is 80 and my metabolism is 100). The gingo did a total of 273 damage to me. I can see where people think range fight uses too much stam and hp but instead of assuming it was "broken", I assumed I was doing something wrong.

I knew this was going to happen ahead of time so for the 2nd gingo I switched to a fight action I made for rifle use (hitrate+3 accurate attack 4 stam18(10) hp24(13)). I shot 14 times costing a total of 252 stam and 336 hp. The gingo did a total of 589 damage to me.

I finished those 2 fights in a row with 810/1785 HP and 390/800 Stam.

If range fight is using too much stam or hp, change it so it costs less. I bet that the main reason you have problems fighting Baying Gingos is that your attack action is doing more damage to you than the gingo possibly could. Try using medium armor and not using max hitrate when using rifles. It seems like using your max hitrate was only designed for launcher and autolauncher use (rifles hit/minute are twice that of launchers) just like heavy armor is not designed for mages to wear while casting.

it is possible to do that damage at lvl 51 range only with launcher. with a Q 150 supreme launcher and Q150 max damage choice or excellent ammo. I seen Q 150 choice max damage ammo with 800's (1000's) stats which is pretty good. I brought it at lvl 25 range and did 600's damage on a mob. Range is best at what type of ammo you have and having the best type of launcher or rifle means having farther range distance. Am lvl 45 range and i been playing with it to see how it work and whats the best range weapon. So far i found Launchers to do the most damage but takes up the most bulk, a stack of 6 launcher ammo takes up 50 bulk which is unfair cuz ammo runs out like water, so i think that need to be neft. Bows and pistal holds the most ammo but pistal does the less damage. If i miss anything else am sorry but am not finish playing with range with the range skill.

jgi47ak wrote:A level 55 elemental mage compared to my lev 55 range fight would have acid 6 with a base damage of 195 at a base cast speed of 2.8 seconds.

Strangely enough that's why I used acid 6 and 195 damage for the DPM comparison at level 55[/b]

'...and use acid 6 the DPM numbers work out to:

42 * (195*1.67) = 13677 DPM
22 * 476 = 10472 DPM'

jgi47ak wrote:On a DPM comparison I do way more damage than a level 55 elemental mage... didn't miss your DPM comparison, I ignored it.

You know, I've tried to be very patient and polite to you but, since you're choosing to ignore hard numbers in your attempts to troll, whatever.

Try using concentrate and the DPM numbers are pretty much dead on.

I could be patient and conclusively prove your points wrong again with rifle - have you figured out that you're dodging mr. gingo at a much higher level than you'd have available if you were a pure ranged fighter, for instance? - but since you'd reached the conclusion of 'ranged isn't broken' before you started experimenting, conclusive numbers and testing proving otherwise be damned, I've got better things to do.

Fortunately, since the devs have agreed that it needs work, your posts are irrelevant anyway.

Have fun powerleveling and getting bored. The game has so much more to do than to try to see if you can level heal and elemental up as quickly as you can. Ranged isn't a great substitute for that, but you've been warned.

usinuk wrote:"So, acid 7 = 42 hpm * 400 = 16800 DPM
q70 launcher = 22 hpm * 576 = 12676 DPM"

I'll be honest with you, I saw this and just stoped reading. However, I have looked at you hypothetical numbers anyway.
42 * (195*1.67) = 13677 DPM
22 * 476 = 10472 DPM'

Hit probability? We don't need to account for that. Experimental evidence? We don't need that.

Are you choosing to ignore the reality that a lev 55 mage isn't going to stick anywhere near all of their spells to a lev 75 gingo in your attempts to troll?

Have you figured out that the point of my rifle experiment was to show that Rogmar with lev 111 range fight can take on a baying gingo if he changes some stanzas around? His dodge mod should be about equal to mine if not higher.

jgi47ak wrote:I'll be honest with you, I saw this and just stoped reading. However, I have looked at you hypothetical numbers anyway.
42 * (195*1.67) = 13677 DPM
22 * 476 = 10472 DPM'

Hit probability? We don't need to account for that. Experimental evidence? We don't need that.

Are you choosing to ignore the reality that a lev 55 mage isn't going to stick anywhere near all of their spells to a lev 75 gingo in your attempts to troll?

Have you figured out that the point of my rifle experiment was to show that Rogmar with lev 111 range fight can take on a baying gingo if he changes some stanzas around? His dodge mod should be about equal to mine if not higher.

i use a better gun and ammo now, it probably should help, but i am pretty sure you are fighting something at a lower level than you are, surprisingly i could probably not kill a menacing clopper with level 115 range, using a level 115 _Fight_ skill, i would still require a tank to not get owned, and the actions available to rangers are much more limited than the melee, i can't even buy melee protection aura when im ranging, i should have it over a melee who's supposed to take that damage, and as of now my bowrifle might as well be a rifle because of the hpm i get, range isnt that important when fighitng anymore for me...might as well tank...

Solution to Ranged is that damage per minute or second needs to be ballanced with what other classes of the SAME level...with the SAME Q gear can do. I honestly do not KNOW if that is how it is now...BUT...if it WERE that way...I think Tetra would have better things to do than to be reading the forums...like I don't know...PLAYING maybe, enjoying his new...improved and WORKING gun.

Basics in ANY class, even in a multiclass world, is that each class should be able to function, and even kill mobs that give decent xp....*audible gasp* SOLO, not at level, and not for loot, but grouping should be the preferred option...not the ONLY option.

The way ranged is right now...I don't bother with it, even though in beta that is what I WANTED to be, a gun slinging Tryker digger/crafter...but Trykers had mats issues that took a LONG time to fix...so I didn't go Tryker at release, and ranged still stinks on ice. (and the Magic system is fubared with the Linked thing...but I aint gonna bother to try that one.)

I think that ranged should do the SAME damage...for the SAME HP/stamina useage as the tanks do or the same damage for the same HP/stamina as the Mages do (comparing stamina use to Sap use).

I think the ONLY reason to pick a class over another one should be your PLAYING style...period, you WANT to be a mage, or a tank, or a gun slinger. You should not have to know that one or the other is not ballanced or is so expensive you have to sell a KIDNEY to level the class.

A game is about the game being fun and enjoyable, when it isn't...I feel we OWE the devs to tell them we are not satisified. I mean how the HECK can they know...if we do NOT tell them?