Ryzom

dakhound wrote:because tp's are a reward for supporting your faction, without this reward why would anyone bother,

No, they weren't. This is something that has changed, not something that was. Now it isn't a reward, the lack of them is a punishment.

Again, as I've said before, the best way to do these things is to bring new things in for a group, not to take things away from people.

dakhound wrote:I can imagine the "neutral for access to all tp's" ppl, how would this be in the spirit of the game? Neutrals have chosen not to support a given diety therefore the factions should not support them, if this had been implemented from the start maybe we would not be having this conversation but it wasnt.

No, it wasn't and thus it doesn't fit.
How does it fit the spirit of the game?
Mechanically it fits the freedom to play as you please inherent in the skill system and in the advertising.
It also fits within the idea of 'consensual' which is a little overemphasised given the in game situation but hell, if they're going to say it, I'll use it.
Lastly, neutral parties in real conflicts have relative freedom of movement and of trade that can benefit both sides, plus 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar'.

dakhound wrote:Neutrals also get the SAME amount of tp's as the factioned players. I know the solution to this problem tho = make it so you HAVE to faction, oh wait, you dont like that one do you

No 250 zone access, no PR access.
You already do have to join a faction, ours is called 'Neutral'.

Wrestling it back to topic.
Applying this change would, as previously stated, have an uneven effect on those who are non-factioned. If it were to be done then restoring even partial PR access would be a way to balance it out.
You have to consider everyone when trying to present changes like this.

sprite wrote:As for that graph Jyudas, why not make it an exponential? A logarithmic? A Cubic? An inverse proportionality? Stop making up silly graphs and examples to suit your argument and listen to people who know more about the topic than you do.

How about you stop being a pompous git everyone?
You'll note, if you can wriggle out of your cranial/posterior inversion for a few moments that neutral PR diggers have said precisely the same thing I have.

michielb wrote:What is it, I wonder, that Kami and Kara have to lose by allowing neutrals access to the PR tp's?

This is the bit that I don't get.
Seem all for causing us more issues or making us 'suck on it' when it comes to the problems that already exist, yet also for forcing more problems. Quite how things that make our game a bit easier and better adversely affect them, I don't know.

grimjim wrote:This is the bit that I don't get.
Seem all for causing us more issues or making us 'suck on it' when it comes to the problems that already exist, yet also for forcing more problems. Quite how things that make our game a bit easier and better adversely affect them, I don't know.

I think that is because your post usually have an annoying tone. It causes bad feelings against your cause, which is, clear and sound, the neutrals. And in forums that kind of thinghs is very usual, you know. Hate the poster, hate their cause, even if that cause doesn't bother you.

I'm factioned, and I don't see any problem in let the neutrals take PR tps, and didn't read a good reason for that opposition, but I've seen you take opposition to some things just because "there aren't for neutrals" or "blah, blah, neutrals, blah, blah". Always neutrals, maybe it's a bit... boring.

In this matter, you have good reasons, in a lot others, you don't. I think now some people are being so zealous with the issue as you use to be with others.

So, better we let appart the zealous acctitudes (Not more Faction vs. Neutral, not more PvP vs. PvE), and bring some reasons to the thread:


Why the neutrals can't get PR tps? The lore could be easily done, making the kara or the kamis allow them to bring nearer to their side (The other faction could allow other things), and i don't see any damage to factioned in it. But, after all, I've been playing only six months or so, so maybe I'm losing something.

Bah, Pop's right,

as many now know or are finding out slowly, i've recently left the Samsara to seek new challenges in the world. i decided on forming my own guild, and obviuosly i had to choose a faction. i decided that, for the time bieng, i will remain neutral - and YES neutral = a faction.


but, now growing in a small family of my own (Jyudas has grandkids!) i've realized all the more forcefully that bieng neutrals is _fine_ when it comes to sub 150(or even up to 200) hunting and digging, but once you try entering the more elite areas of Atys, remaining neutral is a huge nerf. even though obviously i can pick a side at any time, we've chosen for the time bieng to remain neutral because it seems its us neutrals that stand out the most, picking sides is falling into oblivion - becoming just another slave to demanding dieties.

-one comment that caught my eye and really 'pissed me off' was saying that "people have trekked through PR with kitin patrols once, whats the difference now?" is one of the most absurd comments i've recently heard. i can trek PR inside and out - so long as i'm in a group, wearing my HP ARMOR and HP JEWELRY with HEALERS AND NUKERS AND MELEE.

BAH, sickens me to think people are saying Neutrals just whine because they can't have the TPs - when they are contently TPing anywhere their heart desires.

-for the record, NO i don't think neutrals should have all TPs, but maybe having PR TPs in non250 zones? or at least one here or there damit.. the trek from ToT all the way up to Windy Gate is a complete joke. not because its "so hard" but because its such a waste of time - we need to trek huge distances to get to mats that Faction-aligned can snipe in at season change and snag from under our noses.

-NB
Nightblade

sluggo0 wrote:The lore doesn't support this, Jena and Ma-Duk are not OBLIGATED to give neutrals ANY tps.

It was a bad thing from a game design perspective to remove the kitin patrols, where in the lore did they explain this?

The kitins wanted to have more free time, or the hive is forced to save cash?

This game has 3 sides, two you can join, and one for the guys who cant decide or dont want to pick a side or not take on the other team, i think the KP, for the sake of those that picked the choice to stay natural, so they can have atleast some chance geting past the mobs with 50m on and dont geting jumped before by some random mobs all the time, when we factioned can port down, and fill our bags and take them into the stable packer of choice.

so when a factioned player can just smile as two naturals almost comes to the sup mats, thanks to the patrols, then we have a cruel game that forces the player.

From a purely RP standpoint, one would think that limiting the TPs to faction members is a no-brainer.

There is no lore justification for the higher powers to move the unfaithful about. Dapper alone can't mean much to them (it hardly means anything at all to us)

That they allow any TPs to work for the non-alligned at all is something of a supernatural marketing ploy. Kind of like releasing a peice of demo software, but taking out all the really nifty stuff until the customer send you some cash.

Anyone who respects the lore of Atys has to admit that it would be out of place for the higher powers to teleport those who oppose them, and moving unbelivers would diminish the reward to thier faithful.

But, back to the real topic...Are those factional rewards really enough?

I mean, the neutrals get all-important moral supieriority. They get to look down on those of use who, in a stunning lapse of reason, have commited ourselves to making Atys a better place. Those of us who (obviously due to some genetic, or perhaps environmental, defect) foolishly belive that life is not always a choice between the perfect and the bad; but that sometimes we have to choose between "bad" and "not-quite-as-bad".

To counteract this apparant flaw, are high-level teleport tickets really sufficient? Is that alone enough to level the playing field against the super-intellects that make up the morally-supierior neutral? I humbly submit it is not. No, what we need is some sort of game mechanic that, thought it would not make us morally equall, at least might make us physically competitive.

I, therefore, suggest an Always-On PvP tag for Neutrals. After all, why would the neutrals need protection from either side, the force of thier moral might should vaporize us lesser homin. And, why would the higher powers protect them from the primitive rage of those homin foolish enough to belive? That is, after all, the great benifit of religion, is it not? Protection from those who belive like you do?

I belive that this small change will make Atys a more realistic and dynamic place; and that, at last, we will have balance.

Thank you for your attention.

grimjim wrote:You'll note, [uneccesary profanity removed] that neutral PR diggers have said precisely the same thing I have.

Name three in this thread who did it (ie got to master, or close) when there were KPs, are still doing it now, and agree with you on the subject of KPs making it harder for neutrals than factioned players, and I'll shut up on this topic.

Btw I assume you were just insulting me there, even though you did say "everyone". If I'm wrong then yay but I doubt it somehow.

kuroari wrote:i can trek PR inside and out - so long as i'm in a group, wearing my HP ARMOR and HP JEWELRY with HEALERS AND NUKERS AND MELEE.

If you're patient, you can trek it naked I tested it saturday night, and I managed to trek through Wastelands with no jewels, no armour and no amps. It's entirely possible to sneak almost anywhere (HH being an exception for me that springs to mind.) and it takes less time to sneak through than it does to blast your way through!

kuroari wrote:...the trek from ToT all the way up to Windy Gate is a complete joke. not because its "so hard" but because its such a waste of time...

NB, I love you, but you're crazy! Why go from ToT? Surely the Nexus portal in EF is much easier...

Sort of on-topic, and sort of off-topic here...

I'm going to try it during the next week, to refresh my memory of what it's like without PR TPs. I'm going to trek as if I were a neutral to all my regular digging spots, and then do the same again with my future digging spots (which I've already picked *grin*) in Wastelands and Underspring. I want to see for myself (and prove/disprove) the theory that it's not actually any harder, just takes a little more time. And given that the weather in PR is a total PITA, even if it actually takes any longer overall on average. I'll report my findings in a seperate thread for anyone who is interested. Perhaps some other factioned PR diggers would like to join me on a week of "being a neutral PR digger" ? Might be a nice idea to allow us to truly see it from their side.

*hugs*