Ryzom

jgi47ak wrote:I'm lev 55 2-hand range fight and 65 2-hand melee. I use rifles, auto launchers, and launchers with medium armor. I think the main thing that needs to be fixed is people's perception of ranged fight. The gun determines range and hit rate and ammo determines damage. It seems kind of odd at first that a rifle of sap load does just as much damage as a rifle of damage but it makes sense. How can a gun increase the damage of the ammo anyway? Well you could strengthen the barrel to allow a more powerful explosive propellent to be used but the thicker stronger barrel would be harder to cool, slowing down the fire rate and then... well you end up with an auto launcher that does more damage than a rifle don't you? If there were more stanzas for range fight aside from accurate attack and increase hit rate, I wouldn't use them. There's no way I could afford to make my range fighting actions cost more anyway as it is I can't use heavy armor because of the action penalty.

I do more damage than a lev 55 mage at a faster rate (and my shots stick a lot more often than elemental spells as well) unless I run out of my choice 99% damage ammo. I guess it is hard for new characters to start off doing range fight but I think that's mainly because they don't know where to find good damage ammo mats. I didn't start doing range fight until I was lev 40 range weapon craft. I made myself a sap load launcher and 99% choice damage ammo with mats I harvested near Yrkanis and Avalae. Just like a low lev melee fighter who somehow gets his hands on a good damage weapon, I leveled up fast. There was one time where I shot 3 rounds from my launcher and killed 4 gingos for a grand total of 12000XP.

Range fight works great for me.

Ivarion
Gladius Jenae(hopefully)

I'm level 111 in range fight, even with heavy armor on, i can barely kill one baying gingo, and if there were 2, i would be dead for sure, if i switched to my level 66 2h melee, i could easily finish both of them off
as for ammo crafting, it's not hard to find the mats, but i used to harvest them myself, now i just by the mats to craft the ammo, it's not a matter of knowing what mats are needed, everyone knows where the mats are, i use a bowrifle and it does pretty good damage, but if i compared to any other combat class at the same level, they would do way more damage than me
i've gotten a hpm of 20 onto my bowrifle, and a range of about 33.2, i use the rifle over launcher because of the amount of ammo i can use, and i can actually bring it into the canyon for atleast an hour before running out, pistol is just too darn weak so i dropped it
melee and range are just totally unbalanced, i've dueled with a melee fighter who was around level 50 or 60, i used range level 100, i BARELY won because i used melee protection and selfheal to save myself, it's just not balanced
Not only are they itself unbalanced, but also the skill trees
I FREQUENTLY find myself with 50-60 extra skill points with range, the only necessities are about 7 things, the 4 hp/stamina upgrades, hp credit upgrade, and hitrate+/accurate attack, 3 of them come about every 25 levels, and 4 come every 5, so every 5 levels you have 10 extra sp, once you hit a level 25 you end up with 20 extra sp, which you dont even need, for melee when i was a higher level than range by 10 levels, i found myself using every last skill point to buy the various things like circular attack, ignore armor, attack after dodge, beserker, melee protection aura and so on...
Availability is another thing to look at, with the stats i've acquired, q130 is what i can use, i can't find anyone who can range craft bowrifles like that for me, im resorting to q70 rifles i make from the excellent/supreme mats off the market
And jgi47ak, you think it is balanced at those levels, i did too, i thought it was the perfect class until i got higher and started sending more and more tickets about what needs to be improved

I'm leaving for work soon and can't be bothered to type up a long post right now. soooo.....

jgi47ak wrote:I do more damage than a lev 55 mage at a faster rate (and my shots stick a lot more often than elemental spells as well) unless I run out of my choice 99% damage ammo.

No you don't.

hunter17 wrote:I'm level 111 in range fight, even with heavy armor on, i can barely kill one baying gingo,

If that's true, then you're doing something wrong. I'm only 50 in range, and I can kill a baying gingo with no problem. Are you using ammo of max damage? Have you maxed out your firing rate?

bcharles wrote:If that's true, then you're doing something wrong. I'm only 50 in range, and I can kill a baying gingo with no problem. Are you using ammo of max damage? Have you maxed out your firing rate?

yes and yes, i always use max damage ammo, i probably could kill it now due to my jewelry, but a range fighter should not have to rely on that, and what's your melee skill, that is probably why you can kill it so easily
i should mean i could barely kill 2 baying gingo's, but that's still pretty low for level 111, but for sure i know i cannot win vs the yellow mobs with 3 stars and above, launcher i just experimented for the first time, it's pretty good, the only problem is with the limitation of ammo, its not good for trips down to the canyon and so on
a rifle's output should be atleast half to three-quarters of the damage of a launcher, this would be for two reasons, you are not using splash damage to kill more than one monster, and 2 is that if your character is truly a "range fighter" he would be aiming for vital parts rather than shooting straight at the armor

Here's a transcript of my fight with 3 scary gingos in a row at lev 55 range fight in MEDIUM ARMOR using accurate attack 4, hitrate +5, and a q50 sapload launcher with q80 choice max damage ammo:

You target a Scary Gingo.
You attack Scary Gingo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's front legs for 456 points of damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 456 points of damage.
Scary Gingo attacks you.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's head for 456 points of damage.
You have killed the Scary Gingo.
You gain 3000 experience points in '2 Handed Range Fight'.
Scary Gingo attacks you.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You target a Scary Gingo.
You attack Scary Gingo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's rear legs for 456 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo hits your head for 235 damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You hit the Scary Gingo's head for 456 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
You have used your last ammo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 410 points of damage.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
Scary Gingo attacks you.
the Scary Gingo hits your arms for 177(235) damage.
You equip with your Vulca Piercing Ammo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's head for 373 points of damage.
You have killed the Scary Gingo.
You hit the Scary GIngo's head for 387 points of damage.
You gain 3000 experience points in '2 Handed Range Fight'.
You target a Scary Gingo.
You dodged the Scary Gingo's attack.
the Scary Gingo hits your arms for 177(235) damage.
You stop attacking Scary Gingo.
You attack Scary Gingo.
You miss Scary Gingo.
the Scary Gingo hits your legs for 177(235) damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 368 points of damage.
the Scary Gingo hits your chest for 177(235) damage.
You miss Scary Gingo.
Scary Gingo performs a critical strike on you.
the Scary Gingo hits your arms for 177(235) damage.
You are no longer blinded.
the Scary Gingo hits your hands for 164(218) damage.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 456 points of damage.
the Scary gingo hits your chest for 138(184) damage.
"Ivarion" has been saved.
You heal yourself 800 hit points.
Your attacks are no longer slowed.
You have used your last ammo.
You hit the Scary Gingo's body for 456 points of damage.
You have killed the Scary Gingo.
You gain 3000 experience points in '2 Handed Range Fight'

I ended that fight with 1148/1750 hp and 622/800 stamina. (note I did self heal for 800 though.)
I was using DODGE mode.
My attack action used 47(25)Stam and 24(13)HP in Medium armor. It would have cost 67(25)Stam and 35(13)HP in Heavy armor.

If you can find a lev 55 elemental mage that can do 456 points of damage who only gets resisted 2 out of 13 times then I lied when I said I can do more damage with range fight than a mage of my same level.

Ivarion
Gladius Jenae(hopefully)

When I fight with launchers I keep 180 bulk for 2 clips (12 shots) of launcher ammo on my character. On my packer, I hold another 2 clips and plenty of ammo mats. My packer follows me when I fight with a launcher because I can't hold enough shots on my own. I use medium armor because I would end up doing more damage to myself in heavy armor than the enemy would because of the hp credit. This is especially true with rifles that shoot much faster than launchers.

Ivarion
Gladius Jenae(hopefully)

jgi47ak wrote:When I fight with launchers I keep 180 bulk for 2 clips (12 shots) of launcher ammo on my characterIvarion
Gladius Jenae(hopefully)

Notice you use the _launcher_ what are the people who specialize in rifles supposed to do?
i have a launcher but i never bother since its expensive and gives you 3 shots, i could get 80 shots for less mats on a rifle, and i use the rifle, it's weak compared to other guns, could i kill enemies easy with launchers, sure, but i prefer using the rifle and i should not be penalized for using something economically cheaper and in stat wise better, if only damage was tweaked, not making it stronger, but im sure there are other ways...
*edit* dont forget that your melee level also affects how well you do...

jgi47ak wrote:q50 sapload launcher with q80 choice max damage ammo
[snip]
If you can find a lev 55 elemental mage that can do 456 points of damage who only gets resisted 2 out of 13 times then I lied when I said I can do more damage with range fight than a mage of my same level.

with level 80 spells? Not hard... Even easier if you toss in a dual nuke brick. Hey, you don't seem to see anything wrong with the well known bug that ammo has no equip/use reqs and consider it reasonable to even try to claim the class is balanced because of this, then I don't see anything wrong with throwing in dual brick nuke or at the very least equalizing things with level 80 spells...

Breaking my promise again to not post on ranged until my DPM summary is done, but since this implies a DPM comparison it needs to be factchecked.

jgi47ak wrote:and a q50 sapload launcher with q80 choice max damage ammo

First, you're wasting mats with q80 ammo and a q50 launcher. The 456 damage is level 50.

jgi47ak wrote:I ended that fight with 1148/1750 hp and 622/800 stamina. (note I did self heal for 800 though.)

Second, one big part of the issue has always been not using ranged as a toy for bored 2H or elem PL'ers but as a standalone line, where it badly lacks.

It's hard to tell what your other melee levels are, but in admitting use of self heal 8 you're at least 70 in one of the other melee lines.

If you were a level 55 pure ranged fighter without good equipment:

Max hp/stam: 700
Max self heal: 600
First 3 scary gingo attacks: 235+177+177, self heal 6 to get back to something like 650 or so after subtracting some hp credits
Next set: 177+177+177+164 = death

Now, granted, no one in their right mind would go out without hp/stam enhancements. But...given what it costs to make launcher ammo you're way behind the curve in being able to afford equipment.

It also looks very much like you didn't pull 2 or 3 at once - which even with your bloated stats would have killed you. This is a huge problem with launcher ammo and the AOE effect.

jgi47ak wrote:If you can find a lev 55 elemental mage that can do 456 points of damage who only gets resisted 2 out of 13 times then I lied when I said I can do more damage with range fight than a mage of my same level.

Nope.

Launchers are undoubtedly the best that ranged has to offer, much better than pistols, for instance, which as I showed in my other posts do 2/3rds the damage of the weakest melee tree at about 3-4x the stam costs.

Let's take an apples-to-apples look. Since you don't provide the stats on your weapon, I'll use mine, a mostly supreme/some excellent mat 90% speed 11 hpm launcher using max ql ammo and compare against a similar (96% cast speed, 67% damage) good but not great amp. Making it further apples to apples, I'll use q70 (which is the last apples-to-apples comparison until level 120).

q70 99% damage launcher ammo = 576 per hit
q70 acid 7 = 240 per hit, 240 *1.67= 400 per hit

11 hpm + hit rate 6 = around 20, call it 22 hpm to juice things
Acid 7 w/no time credits = 2.8 cast speed = 21.4 hpm * 96% speed = 42 hpm

So, acid 7 = 42 hpm * 400 = 16800 DPM
q70 launcher = 22 hpm * 576 = 12676 DPM

This disparity of course gets far worse after level 100, where double missile doubles that DPM total. And launchers are the single best ranged weapon.

And hits? Thats what you have concentrate for.

Launchers are good though. A 99% dmg q80 2h axe does 212 * say 25 hpm for a good one = 5300 * inc damage = 10600 dpm versus a q80 launcher at 636 * 22 hpm = 13992 dpm.

jgi47ak wrote:My packer follows me when I fight with a launcher because I can't hold enough shots on my own

And that's the real problem. I'd be relatively happy with launcher damage early on if it didn't cost me 12 mats for 3 shots, each weighing 44 lbs and 45 bulk. So basically, for those 3 gingos cost you 48 mats, or the equivalent of 2 amps or 2 2h weapons. 3 gingos using a rifle seem to cost me about 6 mats, which is a much better number.

But then add in the inability to use dodge/parry/crit/feint credits to offset the higher stam costs - although you're right, light or medium armor is a much better fit for ranged - and there is a lot of work left to be done.

But I'm glad you're enjoying the early levels of ranged.

Mai thinks that ranged is more difficult to work than melee (b/c of bulk and price for ammo, etc.). That's why more people do melee. If you want to power-level, you just can't manage with ranged unless you're just trying to steal xp by shooting once or twice. As far as mai think, meh that's fine.

Ryzom isn't always about being the most powerful you can possibly be, if it was everyone would be X or Y. If you want to, that's fine, but it's not what I enjoy about the game. There are plenty of brackets that arn't as "good" as other ones, take Close Combat (which I happen to like a lot). It's very different than other fighting styles, and doesn't work well with the usual role of a DD melee person.

Mai thinks level isn't an end in and of itself, it's a means to whatever end you chose. You're welcome to disagree with me, but I'll be doing things like dagger fighting, ranged, etc because I think they're fun. I may never hit lvl 250 Master Pitol, but I'm fine with that