PvP, the devil: or (to P or not to P?)

[putterix]

Im gettin so tired of all these whinings and complains, use the time to get some quality time in ryzom. There will always be people that likes to aggro innocent people like in RL. IMO the PvP areas are used for events, i dont think devs made them for killin peeps on random.

"One who thinks Ryzom is more than only a game"

[kyesmith]

Im gettin so tired of all these whinings and complains, use the time to get some quality time in ryzom. There will always be people that likes to aggro innocent people like in RL. IMO the PvP areas are used for events, i dont think devs made them for killin peeps on random.

"One who thinks Ryzom is more than only a game"

OFC its for killing people, else they would only activate the PvP when events are on.
The game is being turned into all PvP the devs had done this for content, but it seems this is not what ryzom wants....

[sofiaoak]

I for one am not into pvp or otherwise go into pvp areas, but if someone kills me WITHOUT reason (some people might have reasons to do so and then its between us) ill sure report that griefing, cause thats what it is, and as a citizen of Atys i have the right to talk.

I agree.

I'm not my self interested about PvP, but there is fine line between attacking someone with reason and doing random attacks because it's possible. If someone is doing random attacks, they will know that it does get noticed and "citizens" will be warned. Players will have responsibility they own actions and there will be allways consequences.

Now, attacking others in open PvP area is okey, of course, but it's always better have consent or reason for it. It's more polite way to do stuff. It's not really reason, that PvP is allowed in that area. Just because someting is possible, does not mean it should be done.

[lupine04]

I mentioned this in a previous post, but I'll say it again here ... I doubt the griefing or ganking is going to come from the current populace - or at least not much of it. I could be wrong, but I just don't imagine Ryzom being a game where that type of person would hang around waiting for the opportunity to be implemented. Too many other games that will offer it up now.

However, again, once the game has it and advertises it, people are going to begin coming to this game whose only intention - their *only* source of enjoyment - comes from griefing others and making them as miserable as possible. They're not doing it in the spirit of competitive PvP. Asking them why they did it and expecting any kind of sincere role-play oriented answer is giving them too much credit. They'll tell you "I'm role-playing" and it's completely sarcastic. It's a lie. They're actually mocking you if they say so. Don't believe me? Go see what griefers'/gankers' opinions of role-players is in other games' forums. Many actually *target* role-players as their key victims - even in a game that by design promotes role-playing. Role-players are seen as weak "carebears". Easy targets. Their sole reason for killing another character, 100% of the time, is because they want to and they can. That's it.

I've played far too many PvP enabled games where this pattern has happened - without fail - to believe any different will come of PvP in Ryzom. There's a difference between PK'ers, and griefers/gankers. PK'ers will PvP with reason, like was mentioned above... control over an area, or a resource node, or an in-game rivalry, etc. PK'ers will also go after anyone for the same reasons.. no matter what the level or their chance of losing. Griefers and gankers will only go after people they know they can easily beat, and need no other reason than their own sense of fun at someone else's expense. There's an important distinction there that people need to understand.

If it's going open PvP, I hope Nevrax are *real* careful about how they state as much and don't really let players just have at it with no restrictions - or that they place very clear and firm anti-griefing/ganking rules in place. Given what I've seen from the Ryzom community as it is now, they're looking to lose alot more players if they're not careful with how they implement PvP and let gankers/griefers run rampant with impunity.

[vinnyq]

So basically, what you are saying is, if you PK to make yourself feel better, that's bad. But if you PK because you think you have a reason to in game context, that's ok.

Where's the line? That's the hard bit to pin down. Kye (and the pple who supported what he did) does not think that their way of PK'ing is causing problem. It's PVP zone, treat us like a Vorax, we're just spicing up the game, etc. Their reasons are valid if you are able to switch mental gear a bit and look at it in their shoes.

The gloatings and insults are probably what turned it ugly moreso than the actual act of PKing.

[grimjim]

I mentioned this in a previous post, but I'll say it again here ... I doubt the griefing or ganking is going to come from the current populace - or at least not much of it. I could be wrong, but I just don't imagine Ryzom being a game where that type of person would hang around waiting for the opportunity to be implemented. Too many other games that will offer it up now.

Most of the pro PvPers in game already do already grief and gank.

[grimjim]

So basically, what you are saying is, if you PK to make yourself feel better, that's bad. But if you PK because you think you have a reason to in game context, that's ok.

Where's the line? That's the hard bit to pin down. Kye (and the pple who supported what he did) does not think that their way of PK'ing is causing problem. It's PVP zone, treat us like a Vorax, we're just spicing up the game, etc. Their reasons are valid if you are able to switch mental gear a bit and look at it in their shoes.

The gloatings and insults are probably what turned it ugly moreso than the actual act of PKing.

Indeed. I'd love to find out what this elusive 'Noob' beast it is that they're hunting and how they keep mistaking decent homin for it.

They're not spicing up the game though, they're jarring it. There's no RP or context for it and you even see people from the same guild fighting each other.

Nor is there any real challenge to it, its predictable by levels and healing makes it ridiculously drawn out and stupid, as does the overpowering of elemental magic.

There's also no real point and no real consequences to either the PKer or the PKee.

If they played as bandits, that might work out, but then you'd see them taking payments and then killing people anyway. To the person, often harvester, being killed there is a drawback, annoyance and wasted time and effort. To the Pker, none. They don't care about the bad reputation and don't mind being killed, if you form anti-PK groups you're just playing into their hands and giving them the game they want. Passive resistance doesn't work either, you just get killed again and again and called 'n00b'.

It remains pathetic and childish, a little RP effort and some consequences/rewards might give more of a context but would probably just encourage more silliness.

[lupine04]

Again.. I explained that in my last post.. Someone who is a PK'er, for one, will generally attack anyone, no matter what the level... win or lose.

The point that Kye is making, if I understand correctly, is not the same as what I'm talking about. There's a clear distinction that is very obvious once you've seen it a few times in other games with open PvP. PvP'ers who are playing in the competitive sense will do so consistently and against people who are their level. If they win, they win. If they lose, they lose.

Gankers are people who will only hunt and kill players many levels lower than them that they know they can beat easily. They will almost always run at the first sign of someone they know is more powerful than them is coming after them.
Griefers are basically Gankers who will seek out and torment those same people consistently to make the player miserable, for their own enjoyment.

It's not the action, it's the mentality behind it. And it's very very obvious if you've experienced it from both sides.

Case in point, to illustrate what I mean...

Lineage II is completely open PvP. Nothing is off-limits within the context of the game.

I was playing a new character one evening, there was a guy who was hanging around the lowbie area, hiding behind a tree somewhere and one-shotting any lowbie character who came by, then sending them /tells and taunting them. He had no point to doing it. There's no item drops or xp loss for someone under level 5 in that game, so he had nothing to gain from it. I was level 3 and he, by his own admission, was level 19. He just kept doing it and then gloating about how he "pwned" me and any other "stoopid noob" who came out of the starting village. That's a classic Ganker/Griefer. When I said "Okay, I got the point. You can one-shot me. Good job.. how about hunting something more worthy of your skills?" He replied, "because killing your noob a-- is so much more fun. Come out and I'll kill you again!" So, I sent a message out across the /shout channel reporting him.. A couple people responded that they'd be there right away (higher level players do not like gankers/griefers because it turns off new players and keeps more people from coming into the game). He sent a message to me about being a "carebear" and to leave the game if I couldn't handle it. Yet, as soon as a couple higher level players came by to deal with him.. He left. He logged off immediately. Why? Because he's not into PvP - he's into getting his kicks off of picking on people who can't defend themself.

Now, by contrast. A few levels later, I was out farming for a certain item I needed for a quest. A higher level player came by who apparently had been farming the same creatures and I was infringing on his territory. He said "Leave, this is my area". I said "Why? I'm collecting necklaces." He said "this is my area. Leave or I'll kill you." and hit me with a warning shot. I healed myself and said "Sorry.. this isn't "your" area." and continued attacking another orc. He two-shotted me and went about his business. I headed back out there, figuring okay, point made. Not gonna whine about it or whatever. I'll just farm a different group of orcs. He ran past a little bit later while I was fighting an orc with another on my back, killed off the second orc and healed me to full HP, bowed and ran off again. We actually went on to chat later on and became pretty friendly with one another. That wasn't the last time he helped me out, either.

*That* was someone PvP'ing in the spirit of competition. He could have easily kept killing me just like the first person did.. but there was no reason to. I was in his farming area, he wanted claim to it and in the context of the gameplay it was his right to do so. So he did. But beyond that, there was no more reason for him to give me trouble.

That's the difference. That's how you can tell one from another. There are many other examples I could give, but that does a good enough job, I think.

[kyesmith]

Again.. I explained that in my last post.. Someone who is a PK'er, for one, will generally attack anyone, no matter what the level... win or lose.

The point that Kye is making, if I understand correctly, is not the same as what I'm talking about. There's a clear distinction that is very obvious once you've seen it a few times in other games with open PvP. PvP'ers who are playing in the competitive sense will do so consistently and against people who are their level. If they win, they win. If they lose, they lose.

Gankers are people who will only hunt and kill players many levels lower than them that they know they can beat easily. They will almost always run at the first sign of someone they know is more powerful than them is coming after them. .

I really like the idea of ALOT more PvP organised events, then the people who want to take part can and those who dont like it can carry on doing what they like.
and i am working on a few ideas for events, which i hope to keep all PvPers happy

[nanaruto]

if i can say something, on french server , there is a lot of player who used primes roots to pk, we dont considere its only for events. but however, its often for personal vendetta or something like that. when somebody is attaking you by rear without any rp justification he generally dont return in prime roots for a long time. I thing pk for pk will be a probleme one day , only if there is nobody to react and to punish that kind of people, killing enemis for role play is normal...and i personnaly like to kill the player who pk for pk
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Kyos, Grand Sase, Maitre de l'ordre des proselyte de la confrérie du grand Dragon

http://www.confrerie-grand-dragon.net