Illegal Harvest?

[zukor]

How in the world can I, using stanzas that I EARNED, not tampering with the server, NOR altering the client, NOT grouped, NOT having anyone else "heal" my nodes, CHEAT?

How can being SMART and figuring out how to get the VERY most out of a single extraction be exploiting? I just don't get it.

I am an amatuer rock hound, I honestly truly really DO dig in real life. And there is some science to it, some pure dumb luck, and some intuition about it. As I see it, SO FAR this game is much more realistic than many others, there is genuine cause and effect. SO it only stands to reason that if I use all I know about digging, apply it to the game, apply the mechanics (stanzas) wisely that I will gain MORE per dig than if I just aimed blindly and used whatever stanzas as they came from the trainers.

How could THAT be cheating?

I mean with melee, exploiting is pretty clear. And if I was in some way altering the client or messing with the lag or something in order to gain an unfair advantage...Now that CLEARLY is cheating.

I think if there is a limit by either level...or by stanza, on the number of units of materials you can gather in ONE extraction...that is easy, STOP the extraction WITH full exp for all currently extracted materials, and give a message something like, "you have gathered as many materials as is possible with (or due to)*insert name of stanza or level that is limiting further extraction*. Then we would know WHY we are limited and how to improve to STOP the limiting.

All we HONEST players (and I am not so cinical, I include the VAST majority of the NA server in that group) want is to know the FULL rules, then we can actually follow them. Remember how old fashioned board games came with the instructions on the lid of the box, that is ALL we are asking for please.

Agree 100%. Trying to figure out the best combination of actions to put in a stanza to maximize my harvesting is the opposite of cheating. It's playing the game the way the designers want it to be played. To say we're "doing something wrong" when we are following the rules of the game as created by Nevrax and trying our best to use our ingenuity is ridiculous. If that's the way the GM's think, an attitude adjustment is needed before they lose more customers. This is not an "us versus them" situation. All of us here enjoy the game to some extent, and want to work with the GM's to make gameplay as good as it can be. Very few people here are trying to exploit the game, IMO. If the game misidentifies honest straightforward playing as an exploit, that is a BUG, nothing else, and it needs to be fixed.

Why should I have to stop harvesting early in order to avoid being given an incorrect message? That is the wrong attitude. The approach should be to fix the problem giving the incorrect message so that the game can be played as it's designed. As far as I know, harvesting is not designed such that you have to press control-S to end the activity once you've collected some arbitrary number of materials, even if the timer hasn't run out.

Doctor Z.

[xcomvic]

how can it be a cheat? if you prospect a source, then extract it, everything you get from it should be yours and get XP with it... plain and simple. If there is some sort of exploit where you may receive extra mats from a source, then find it and kill it. Stupid messages or no exp given is just plain retarded. Obviiously it's not a bug or exploit if it's still in the game and people can reproduce it. Not only do they reporduce it, but they get corny messages as well...

[skylt]

This could possibly be caused by net lag, followed by catchup surge. If this occured at the right time, it could produce occassional erratic yields. However, this would readily be identifiable by Neverax as not player generated, due to its infrequency.

I applaud Neverax for taking early precautions against cheating hackers. They have a daunting task in distinguishing between a true hack, and a finely tuned top end computer, as produced by Alienware, Falcon Northwest, and others. They should not disclose the fine line of their enforcement, as the hackers would go right to this line, then stay below detection.

Ort

[lyrah68]

Exactly, this is why I feel that ANY limits should be written INTO the coding. If there is a limit, there should be NO way to pass it. It is NOT the resposiblity of the players to KNOW these limits and avoid them at all costs, fearing banning or anything.

I FIRMLY feel that if suspinsion or banning is even concidered that this SHOULD be fixed via coding ASAP, before mounts and outposts, before encyclopedia, before ANYTHING and everything else.

Why should I have to stop harvesting early in order to avoid being given an incorrect message? That is the wrong attitude. The approach should be to fix the problem giving the incorrect message so that the game can be played as it's designed. As far as I know, harvesting is not designed such that you have to press control-S to end the activity once you've collected some arbitrary number of materials, even if the timer hasn't run out.

Doctor Z.

[zumwalt]

The few moments that I have been able to reproduce this message, was when certain circumstances existed.

First you have to very near another pull number (this is not as consistant in the testing, since I did have it do it to me from a 9.2 to a 9.8, but was more consistant when I was near a 9.8 ready to hit a 10.x)

Second, your timer has to be at its very fine line of existance, so if the timer runs out, and the bar to the pull still happens to hit the pull, the 'ghost' number goes from 9.8 to 10.x (this was only my observation so far)

The other times I have had this happen is when the bar was at 9.2, and I hit the pull as the timer ran out, now from experience of my pulls, I know that it would have normally jumped from 9.2 to 9.8 since I have done that many times before the timer has ran out.

So the only thing I have been able to conclude, is the 'catch' at the instance of 'time out' occurs, or rather occurs a milisecond after the timer was to expire.

These two events have to coincide with each other in a very very very tight interval for you to get the harvest no exp message.

Now, with that said, I am guessing that you are correct in the 'out of synch' or 'lag' factor, in which case, the client is pulling extra in the lag that the server knows should not have been pulled.

So instead of the server resetting the client counter to equal the server counter, it takes the clients / server sees the two are not equal, and blows the wistle.

All I can think of is that the timer exists both on the server and client, and 98% of the time there in synch, but do to network lag, internet lag, speed of client, or choppiness of the server, the timers get out of synch, and the pull amount gets unbalanced in the given scenario.

So, if you have on the client side a 9.8 in your checksum, and the server says based on what skills you been using, you only should have a 9.2 checksum, then POW, 9.8 <> 9.2, and no exp.

I originally thought it might be more along the lines of 9.x vs 10.x since you only get whole numbers, and somehow instead of me having 9.8 from the 9.2, it was thinking I had 10.x or something.

This is all speculation, but like I have stated I kill the harvest before the harvest timer expires, it avoids the issue 100% of the time.

[plarfman]

Exactly, this is why I feel that ANY limits should be written INTO the coding. If there is a limit, there should be NO way to pass it. It is NOT the resposiblity of the players to KNOW these limits and avoid them at all costs, fearing banning or anything.

I FIRMLY feel that if suspinsion or banning is even concidered that this SHOULD be fixed via coding ASAP, before mounts and outposts, before encyclopedia, before ANYTHING and everything else.

Well said! Though I usualy dont have anything to complain about this is and issue that needs to be taken care of asap.

[zukor]

The few moments that I have been able to reproduce this message, was when certain circumstances existed.

First you have to very near another pull number (this is not as consistant in the testing, since I did have it do it to me from a 9.2 to a 9.8, but was more consistant when I was near a 9.8 ready to hit a 10.x)

Second, your timer has to be at its very fine line of existance, so if the timer runs out, and the bar to the pull still happens to hit the pull, the 'ghost' number goes from 9.8 to 10.x (this was only my observation so far)

The other times I have had this happen is when the bar was at 9.2, and I hit the pull as the timer ran out, now from experience of my pulls, I know that it would have normally jumped from 9.2 to 9.8 since I have done that many times before the timer has ran out.

So the only thing I have been able to conclude, is the 'catch' at the instance of 'time out' occurs, or rather occurs a milisecond after the timer was to expire.

These two events have to coincide with each other in a very very very tight interval for you to get the harvest no exp message.

Now, with that said, I am guessing that you are correct in the 'out of synch' or 'lag' factor, in which case, the client is pulling extra in the lag that the server knows should not have been pulled.

So instead of the server resetting the client counter to equal the server counter, it takes the clients / server sees the two are not equal, and blows the wistle.

All I can think of is that the timer exists both on the server and client, and 98% of the time there in synch, but do to network lag, internet lag, speed of client, or choppiness of the server, the timers get out of synch, and the pull amount gets unbalanced in the given scenario.

So, if you have on the client side a 9.8 in your checksum, and the server says based on what skills you been using, you only should have a 9.2 checksum, then POW, 9.8 <> 9.2, and no exp.

I originally thought it might be more along the lines of 9.x vs 10.x since you only get whole numbers, and somehow instead of me having 9.8 from the 9.2, it was thinking I had 10.x or something.

This is all speculation, but like I have stated I kill the harvest before the harvest timer expires, it avoids the issue 100% of the time.

That's an excellent, detailed, description of what the problem is, zumwalt. Now they just need to fix it. You shouldn't have to change the normal way you harvest (which is the way everyone is supposed to harvest) in order to accomodate what clearly sounds like a bug.

Doctor Z.

[lyrah68]

If this is correct, and it sounds right, then they should code it to pause before you can take it, and then ONLY allow the server side figures. This would stop hackers in their tracks, but NOT affect us honest foragers.

I firmly feel that it is the CODERS responsiblity to not "tag" honest people due to things well beyond their control.

FYI, now that I have a GOOD DSL connection, I don't lag, SO...my testing came out with NICE numbers...but I could not replicate this. I could test it on my mothers system (BAD dial up connection, GOOD system), but it sounds like you found the issue well enough to post a ticket to the devs on it.

The few moments that I have been able to reproduce this message, was when certain circumstances existed.

First you have to very near another pull number (this is not as consistant in the testing, since I did have it do it to me from a 9.2 to a 9.8, but was more consistant when I was near a 9.8 ready to hit a 10.x)

Second, your timer has to be at its very fine line of existance, so if the timer runs out, and the bar to the pull still happens to hit the pull, the 'ghost' number goes from 9.8 to 10.x (this was only my observation so far)

The other times I have had this happen is when the bar was at 9.2, and I hit the pull as the timer ran out, now from experience of my pulls, I know that it would have normally jumped from 9.2 to 9.8 since I have done that many times before the timer has ran out.

So the only thing I have been able to conclude, is the 'catch' at the instance of 'time out' occurs, or rather occurs a milisecond after the timer was to expire.

These two events have to coincide with each other in a very very very tight interval for you to get the harvest no exp message.

Now, with that said, I am guessing that you are correct in the 'out of synch' or 'lag' factor, in which case, the client is pulling extra in the lag that the server knows should not have been pulled.

So instead of the server resetting the client counter to equal the server counter, it takes the clients / server sees the two are not equal, and blows the wistle.

All I can think of is that the timer exists both on the server and client, and 98% of the time there in synch, but do to network lag, internet lag, speed of client, or choppiness of the server, the timers get out of synch, and the pull amount gets unbalanced in the given scenario.

So, if you have on the client side a 9.8 in your checksum, and the server says based on what skills you been using, you only should have a 9.2 checksum, then POW, 9.8 <> 9.2, and no exp.

I originally thought it might be more along the lines of 9.x vs 10.x since you only get whole numbers, and somehow instead of me having 9.8 from the 9.2, it was thinking I had 10.x or something.

This is all speculation, but like I have stated I kill the harvest before the harvest timer expires, it avoids the issue 100% of the time.

[cerest]

So...I am haresting along, and I gather an unusually high amount of mats (I got 7.something, when I typically only get 6) And I get a message saying the I have harvested illegally, and I won't get experience.

Am I alone in asking WTF?

Now, we know from a prematurely locked and deleted thread that these sorts of message are usually ment to curtail exploiters from getting XP off of mobs that cannot possibly reach them. But how is it even remotly possible to illegally harvets a node? What exactly did I do that was so illegal?

And before any GMs try to dodge the quesiton by accusing me of trying to get away with exploiting (and there by calling me a cheater, an accusation that I resent!), let's make clear that, so far, XP is the point of the entire game. All I want to know is what not to do in order to keep earning it.

Apparantly, harvesting normally violates some silly check in the software, I think we are entitled to know what that check is in order to avoid violating it.

I will assume that you did in fact submit a bug ticket in game to support. This certainly sounds like a bug, though I can't confirm because I didn't see the circumstances around it. There are measures in place to keep someone from stealing another person's node, however if this was your node this should not have happened.


So please if you haven't submitted an ingame ticket, please do so, and please don't automatically assume that you won't be believed, we actually do give everyone the benefit of a doubt. Thanks.