Dodge/Parry

[vguerin]

The "attack after" skills all MAY hit for double based on what you did with the additional credits. You can use this for a nearly free hit, or to add additional stanza's.

If you using a lower level "increased damage" brick to cut down on stamina usage, you can now use a higher one which MAY result in higher damage. I almost always get additional (or at least max capable) as I use the extra credits to add accurate attack to my "attack after" stanza. This is how the credit has always worked.

Dodge is based on your armor stats, parry on your weapon stats... You can only have one active at a time, and you can toggle the ONE defensive mode you prefer using the PAD.

Ultimate Harvesting Guide

[Eshin]

The whole point of these stanzas is to give a credit for your actions, else there would be no reason in having them at all.

Yeah, I'm pretty fine with that. But both increase damage and credits?

Basically it means that if I don't add anything, but the attack after x stanza, to the action, the credit requirement would be 0 but the credits used something like -20 (attack after x lvl 2), and it hits double damage there too already. Says also that you can add something extra there and still get a free hit. I think you're missing this point here that I'm saying.

I iterate, I was mighty fine with the fact that they did credit my actions (actions that had the increase damage for example), but if they act as a increase damage at the same time (which I'm led to believe according what you said, can't get in-game to see it myself) then it's a bit too much. Hope I'm getting my point across here. And no, you're not probably dense at all, it's just that we might be misunderstanding the concepts here.

Have you actually played a fighter, used increase damage, and seen your stamina drop rapidly ? A "free" hit every now and then is not the big deal you seem to be making it out to be, especially as you have to spend skill points on the stanzas as i mentioned before.

Been playing fighter in the first ob, during open weekends, in focus beta and during the last ob. So no, I haven't used increase damages and therefore didn't notice them to consume stamina in great amounts. Sarcasm aside, point is that it should be a credit that you use to cut down the stamina usage when using stuff like increase damages and whatnot. Or act as an increase damage, but not crediting your stanzas then. It having them both troubles me, and a pretty overpowered package with 10 SP if you ask me.

But, what vguerin is saying there seems like it's working just the way it should and has been working (acting as a credit, so you can use that increase damage stanza, for example, with cut down costs).

[ozric]

Sarcasm aside, point is that it should be a credit that you use to cut down the stamina usage when using stuff like increase damages and whatnot. Or act as an increase damage, but not crediting your stanzas then. It having them both troubles me, and a pretty overpowered package with 10 SP if you ask me.

I thnk i see what youre saying. Having a "free" hit (for up to double damage) every now and then seems wrong to you and overpowered ?
By free hit, i mean 1 hit that doesnt cost any stamina/hp use and does up to double damage. This is the same as 2 default hits, also not costing any stamina. As an example, look at attack after dodge for instance, and take a Q60 weapon. To get double damage from this weapon, you will need to have increase damage 5. To use the attack after dodge with this weapon effectively, you will need to have bought attack after dodge lvl 4, for a total cost of 40 SP. This will give you enough credit on the stanza to get your 1 "free" double damage hit every now and then. If you want to add an accurate attack to this, you will need to spend some stamina or hp credits to balance the action. Also, the higher the level of mob that you fight, the less chance you have of dodging, so the chances of even being able to use this action decrease. As your weapon quality increases, so does the need to upgrade your attack after stanzas, for them to be effective. Sure, you can use att after dodge lvl 4 with a Q100 weapon, but this will not give you anywhere near double damage for your free hit. Thats just for attack after dodge. If you wanted the attack after critical also, that would be another 40 SP for a "free" double damage hit occasionally. You yourself in your fighter guide (which i just noticed last night) advocate the use of the attack after actions, but you are adding things like circular attack and accurate attack to it. Without the credits from the attack after xx stanzas, these custom actions would not be possible, or would consume way too much stamina/hp for them to be viable.

I think i understand what you are saying now, but totally disagree that they are overpowered. To me its like saying Circular attack is overpowered, because it hits 2 or mobs at once.

[Eshin]

You yourself in your fighter guide (which i just noticed last night) advocate the use of the attack after actions, but you are adding things like circular attack and accurate attack to it. Without the credits from the attack after xx stanzas, these custom actions would not be possible, or would consume way too much stamina/hp for them to be viable.

True, but you see those increase damage stanzas I've implemented? That's the way I want those attack after x stanzas to work. They act as credits so you can alleviate the total stamina/hp cost, and it's working wonders like that. But, you're saying that they also replace the increase damage there currently and that's what I think is too much.

I have nothing against the fact that they are credits, but I'm against that they also replace increase damage stanza at the same time (because the credits that attack after x gives are helping enough to withstand the increase damage stanza's stamina/hp usage in that action, there's no need to replace the increase damage stanza as well)

[ozric]

I have nothing against the fact that they are credits, but I'm against that they also replace increase damage stanza at the same time (because the credits that attack after x gives are helping enough to withstand the increase damage stanza's stamina/hp usage in that action, there's no need to replace the increase damage stanza as well)

Ok this is the bit where you lose me. What else do you want them to be a credit for, if not for increase damage ? They dont "replace" increase damage, you can add increase damage to the stanza or you can add something else. If you use increase damage in the stanza, the whole credit is taken up just with doing that, if you want to use it to maximum effect. If you also want to add other things, then you have to use some credits to balance. I just dont see what you are driving at here, sorry ?


Without extra stanzas like accurate attack added to them, there is a fair chance that they will miss the target anyway, especially on a higher lvl mob. So not only do you have to wait for them to activate, they may not even do anything once they are active. This is one reason i think that they are fine as they are atm.

[Eshin]

Without extra stanzas like accurate attack added to them, there is a fair chance that they will miss the target anyway, especially on a higher lvl mob. So not only do you have to wait for them to activate, they may not even do anything once they are active. This is one reason i think that they are fine as they are atm.

From a personal experience I'd say that you usually are fighting against even leveled mobs when you solo, and they do lit up more than they probably should When you take on higher level mobs you're usually in a group where the stamina usage really doesn't dictate the outcome that much (nor does it when you solo, it just cuts down downtime between fights). But yeah, that's just how I experienced it.

But before I bite my tongue about this issue, I wanna clear few things up (as I can't test them myself atm): attack after x stanza in itself does double damage, without the need of adding the actual increase damage stanza there? It also acts as a credit, correct? (lvl 1 -10, lvl 2 -20 etc.) If that's the case then I think it's a bit too powerful, as with proper credit adjustment and fighting against mobs of your level the stamina consumption isn't that much of a problem that you'd be needing this much help.

[ozric]

But before I bite my tongue about this issue, I wanna clear few things up (as I can't test them myself atm): attack after x stanza in itself does double damage, without the need of adding the actual increase damage stanza there?

NO ! Thats my whole point. All it is is a credit stanza. If you want it to do double damage, you have to add the equivalent increase damage stanzas to it.

*Edit* They may well have worked as you describe, in Beta at some point, but this is no longer the case. I now realise you dont have the game, so couldnt have known or tested this yourself.

[Eshin]

I knew this was about misunderstanding, but:

Attack after Dodge/Parry/Critical no longer do double damage.

Yes they do !! (all 3 types do up to double damage, a lot of the time i hit for double)

...can you really interpret that in any other way than like I did? (that the stanza itself does double damage)

Well, they really shouldn't. As in, they are already quite powerful way to cut down the credit cost, so given that fact they shouldn't do what increase damage does anymore. You've verified this?

Why do you think that they shouldnt do up to double damage ? Dont forget that they only activate after a successful dodge/parry/critical, so arent on all the time. Plus, there are upgrades to each, which cost Skill Points and they have a "recomended" level also.
Yes i have verified them. A weapon that has, say, a max damage of 125 will hit for up to 250 when used with the correct (recommended) "attack after..." stanza.

And from your quote I can't really think of any other way either, especially from that last sentence. Point has been all along that Attack after Dodge/Parry/Critical won't do double damage, and as the grammar suggests the stanza itself, not the case if you implement the actual increase damage with it.

Well, at least we got a conversation, no matter how twisted the basis of it was

I only wanted to know what factors affected parry, and what factors affected dodge. sheesh

Soz I hope you got your info.. buried somewhere around the first page.

[Nirvy]

I only wanted to know what factors affected parry, and what factors affected dodge. sheesh

[ozric]

I knew this was about misunderstanding, but:

Yes you are quite right, my fault entirely, and i apologise for not explaining more clearly to begin with.
In my examples tho, i did say that i used increased damage with these stanzas, which would be kinda pointless if the increased damage was already included.