Ryzom

madnak wrote:I disagree. In my experience most griefers aren't into RP, and most evil role-players are very nice OOC (and are even willing to "take the mask off" if things get too personal). Also many Ryzom players aren't interested in role play. I'm a believer in consensual RP of all kinds, but nonconsensual RP is a different thing entirely.

i'm actually really nice in real life, yet i can play greifers, i had LOTS of fun robbing ppl of their loot in games and several of my other friends did the same thing, yet they're all nice ppl

i don't see how an evil character wouldn't like to cause you greif and suffering. simply cause THAT'S WHAT EVIL DOES

i mean if you want a good idea of evil, why not look at hitler or bin laden. yup they will help you pick your flowers cause you asked nicely instead of stomping all over them i can totally see that.

I'll just add one more thing, historically I have noticed that the many, many, exploiters are also griefers who use exploits to enable themselves to cause more grief. There's no RP in that. I'm not saying you're that type of person, but they do exist, and I'm sure they are perfectly nice people in RL too.

Also, a truly RP evil person wouldn't care whether another person was Kami or Karavan.

I've met some excellent robbers/highwaymen in RP. And some great villains. But I don't consider them griefers. Also they caused my character pain and suffering. Not me. There is a very big difference. When a player isn't enjoying things, it's time to stop.

Hitler and bin Laden and Stalin and the rest all had complex motivations and passionate (if twisted) ideals. Serial killers are closer to "suffering for suffering's sake," but even their actions were rooted in deep-seated psychological issues. There's no such thing as a truly random killer. RP is no excuse for going around killing everyone indiscriminately.

Most of the pkers I've personally met have made no attempt to RP, and have even persecuted the RPers at every opportunity. I don't know what kind of a background you have, but in some environments there really are griefers who seek to harm players with no concern for character.

thexdane wrote:wow well worded lyrah and i agree with most of it, some things i'd add more than i'd say "you're wrong"

one thing i'd add is sometimes people want a change in their life, so a rp game can be said outlet. it's a bit of a release for someone to be a "greifer" or an evil char. that's what it is for me when i rp an evil char.

thing is pvp can be good and it can be bad, most "greifers" are roleplaying EVIL characters. i think that's something poeple don't realize. i guess everyone assumes people play good chars or if they do play d&d they don't understand the evil alignment

i mean say i kill a person, heal them, kill them again and so forth. i'm being evil, no nice person in their right mind would do something like that. a good char would never pvp, unless attacked first

i don't mind pvp but there should be a way to con other players but if not i guess it's a crap shoot when you attack someone.

so for all those wondering why greifers exists IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE EVIL

Most people have trouble with alignment in role playing, mostly because people tend to not be introspective enough, or honest enough with themselves to admit that they aren't true neutral or lawful good or chaotic evil. FEW people are half as black and white, cut and dried as they want to believe they are.

And MANY of the griefers are not role playing. What purpose is there to sit at the top of a hill where you KNOW newbies are walking by and kill everyone of them in one shot.

This does NOT fit ANY alignments motivation:
Lawful good would be the one to find these murders and kill them...to restore law and order and it is the "right" thing to do.
(most NON evil lawfuls would do the same as above, to restore the law.)

Neutral good would see this as harmful and not be happy about it, might look for how it would harm him to leave things alone or help him to kill the bad guy, but sooner or later he would get around to killing the bad guy.

Neutral evil would get look around to see if he would get caught, kill the murderer and loot any corpses.

True Neutral might or might not even notice the ganker if he didn't kill THEM. But would seek ballance in everything, eventually the ballance would clearly be seen as endangered and he MIGHT kill the bad guy.

Lawful evil might kill the ganker if his superiors tell him to. One thing about lawful evil I NEVER understood is they aways have someone higher up than them...never heard of a lawful evil leader, or just never saw one role played.

A Chaotic neutral character would not be killing the newbs, they are not a challenge and are NOT a source of serious income. They are nothing more than a nuicance at worst and invisable at best. (this is not my attitude towards newbie/lowbies, but then I am not Chaotic evil).

Griefing is NOT role playing. Finding a challanging player to taunt and attack, when they are not busy with a mob or foraging IS role playing.

I do NOT consider PKing griefing, only pking players SO far under your level that they couldn't land a spell or hit you with the best weapon in game.

I have nothing against PKing with a reason, and if the player is capable of self defence and is a challange.

I will never understand the reasoning behind random meaningless griefing. What in the WORLD do they get out of killing random baby players?

jdiegel wrote:I'll just add one more thing, historically I have noticed that the many, many, exploiters are also griefers who use exploits to enable themselves to cause more grief. There's no RP in that. I'm not saying you're that type of person, but they do exist, and I'm sure they are perfectly nice people in RL too.

Also, a truly RP evil person wouldn't care whether another person was Kami or Karavan.

Lawful evil MIGHT care...that is if either was in their chain of command.

A LAWFUL good person would act out of their sense of right and wrong and NOT kill, but if they observed a murder...they would instantly act out of revenge for the slain.

You are basically saying that a Paladin would stand by and watch a robber KILL a young child and NOT act??? Oh please...no one could honestly think that! I mean all the fair tales are about the Valiant knight riding in to save the less fortunate and the weak!

YES a Lawful GOOD WOULD kill, and if they knew the history of another player...which we all know reputations build up in game, by the time you make it to about 80% of max level in anything...you are known by your deeds, good or bad. And Karma kicks in, AKA people that act and don't think first, hunt poorly, cheat, fight dirty or are just an annoyance find it hard to find groups.

Very few people act without SOME motivation, PURELY chaotic people are either insane or too young to have a set of their OWN ethics. If you EVER think "Hmm I am not going to do that because..." then you have ethics and are NOT purely Chaotic. Unless you are a dischordian, who seeks out "the law" and attacks it out of the belief that ANY law is not tollerable and therefore MUST be destroyed...but even then you have your OWN ethics and rules or you wouldn't attack the rules...would you.

Ben laden didn't bomb the trade center without a motivation and purely for RANDOM terror. In reality if someone attacks someone else...they have a reason or they are crazy.

Even a Sadist eventually gets bored with a victim and moves on. Why anyone would sit on a hill and kill Cash POOR, WEAK newbies is beyond me.

Hilter and Ben laden are both what I would call LAWFUL evil, Hilter CLEARLY had his idea of how things SHOULD be, and went out of his way to FORCE others to do things like he wanted or he had others gather the "offenders" up and had OTHER people kill for him. He HAD a motivation, he did not RANDOMLY kill or destroy.

Same for Ben Laden, His ethics say that NON muslims on muslim holy cites is grounds for attacking totally different but same nationality people(US miltary on Holy grounds in Saudi is NOT tollerable in his opinion, and some people agree with him, so he had other people fly planes into buildings. One thing he failed to realize is that he killed muslims as well, and he killed foreigners as well as Americans. But then, Ben Laden wasn't thinking rationally or aimed poorly or just didn't really CARE who he hit..Collateral damage ya know).

One thing BOTH of those men share in common is their cowardace or laziness. THEY didn't kill, they had others do it for them. At least Sadam had the intestinal fortitude to do the dirty work from time to time. (I still think Sadam was a VILE little TOAD, but he is NOT a coward.)


Also the thought of another player in this game killing for loot is just plain HILLARIOUS to me. What do I have that you couldn't get FASTER by buying it, making it (and gaining xp while foraging/quartering for the materials, and making it). In this game...there is NOTHING so rare as to be WORTH killing another player for. And if you are thinking for cash, you MUST be kidding me. I can make more than enough money to buy a packer (100k each) in less time than it would take to repeatedly kill newbies and loot 100dappers or something like that from them.

thexdane wrote:i'm actually really nice in real life, yet i can play greifers, i had LOTS of fun robbing ppl of their loot in games and several of my other friends did the same thing, yet they're all nice ppl

i don't see how an evil character wouldn't like to cause you greif and suffering. simply cause THAT'S WHAT EVIL DOES

i mean if you want a good idea of evil, why not look at hitler or bin laden. yup they will help you pick your flowers cause you asked nicely instead of stomping all over them i can totally see that.

the BIN laden, it's not ben laden, and hitler were examples and generalties. i knew they had a halfway good explination of what they were doing and why.

i can't honestly speak for everyone but i will say why i'd attack newbies on a hill, simple because i could get away with it.

thing is an evil person is NOT looking for a fair fight. so why would i fight someone that's close to my level?

the thing with playing evil is most ppl CAN'T do it. i'd say most ppl are lawful evil if anything and maybe neutral evil but that's a stretch. really most "evil" chars i've seen ppl play are chaotic good or chaotic neutral.

i think the hardest part of playing an evil char is the fact that you have to go against morals and do something morally wrong.

also evil can be a point of view as well. as my friend once said "the nazi didn't go around saying 'yeah we're doing something really evil' but the leaders did know what they were doing on some level was wrong"

traditionally any oponent is evil. i think it's simply because fighting someone with a different point of view than you is kinda uninspiring. however fighting someone that's evil and doing evil things is very inspiring.

also sometimes those that exploit rules and such really aren't. sometimes ppl just get upset they got beat so they accuse the victor of cheating.

case in point

when team fortress for quake first came out, i played a sniper. i was using +zoom and -zoom to zoom in instead of using the crappy autozoom, yes it was before the fov zoom had come out. i was a good sniper and i killled lots on my 28.8 modem (ahhh those were the days before broadband) anyways i was usually always near the top of the kill list. i would often be accused of cheating simply because i happened to read the manual and know a couple console commands.

was i cheating? no anyone could use it and it was built into the game
was i exploiting anything? no besides other ppl's ignorance
was i being a greifer? probly caused a lot of heart ache and pain for getting them killed over and over

a lot of people like to call other greifers, cheaters and so forth mostly do to the fact that they suck at a game or the other person is better than them. it makes them feel ok for losing at a game.

yes there are those that cheat and i'm sure that a bunch of greifers AND non-greifers cheat but it's not always the norm

You failed to answer my question on your motivation, WHY would you WANT to kill something that gave you NO reward whatsoever? No cash, no experience, NO challange whatsoever?

Do you...or any "evil" rper get gratification from the outburst from the newbie? Do you...like a dischordian (anyone that fights law and order in ANY form) just like to create chaos? I know I have infuriated more than one griefer by cornering him in his own statement of "I enjoy disstroying stuff", when I informed him, "that is impossible, since you are creating plenty, you create chaos, therefore you are destroying NOTHING."

lyrah68 wrote:You failed to answer my question on your motivation, WHY would you WANT to kill something that gave you NO reward whatsoever? No cash, no experience, NO challange whatsoever?

Because I've read every ****ing post on the forums about pvp and I'm sick of the bloody arguments. OMFG someone give me a blade to hack all you bastages to itty bitty pieces and be done with it. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh chaaaaaaaaaarge!