Ryzom

richky wrote:I'm kind of puzzled by this suggestion. The vendors are already supplied by the players (the NPC stuff could be removed as I'm sure nobody ever buys it) so it looks like all you are proposing are ways to buy dig/craft xp for dapper.

To me this looks like it would just have the effect of making xp as worthless as dapper already is (though cats have already gone a long way towards making that happen).

Hmmm, and here I was trying to be as clear as possible...

To start with: NO I do not propose the buy dig/craft xp for dapper! I propose to REWARD dapper and XP for craft and dig missions (as I believe I clearly stated twice...) The dug mats and the crafted items will be sold through the vendors so that there will always be useful stuff for sale and not just when a kind crafter decides to put some stuff up...

To be absolutely clear the mission givers will ask for specific mats not just fiber q50 and that specific fiber q50 will end up at the vendors same goes for the boots, pants swords or rifles. The quest won't be for just any item only a specific item is good enough.

In other words the gear on the vendors will be good but not great it will however be usable.

There will be hitpoint MA of average stats sold at the MA vendor with a corresponding quest where a crafter has to craft hitpoint MA with the same stats as the stuff on the MA vendor.

There will also be focus LA at the LA vendor again with the misson to match...

Now I cannot be sure this will make the dapper an effective currency but I think chances are good that it will. The XP reward would make leveling faster reducing the need for grinding vendor junk and the vendors would finally have something to sell...and have a decent stock.

Currently players can sell to players but more ofter than not don't and when they do the quality of the items differs wildly. They do however sell a lot of stuff to the vendor effectively dumping grind junk into a blackhole.

My suggestion is that the vendor items and mats are removed and replaced by gear with decent stats, not because crafters and digger sell that stuff to players through the vendors but simply because* (call it an upgrade...)

Craft and dig missions are then implemented to back up to supplies on the vendors

* The stock is justified by the crafting missions but even without anyone doing them it would still be there...

Oh and before assuming I'm an idiot please read and understand what I said because I'm sure I never suggested buying xp...I mean I perhaps could have been a bit more clear about the details but I never said anything about BUYING xp! (yup I'm bit bit angry...)

To summarise:

Crafters and Diggers generate less items while leveling -> less dapper for them; worth of dapper increases!

People can buy stuff on vendors that's actually useful -> less dapper for them; worth of dapper increases!

p.s. the whole point of a collateral is that you get it back if not people might take the crafting mission abandon it and keep the mats (mind you the mats would be on the vendors for then same price but stupidity rules...)

michielb wrote:... but I never said anything about BUYING xp! (yup I'm bit bit angry...)

My apologies - I did not intend to make you angry. I realize you did not directly propose buying xp. From my perspective though, replacing a dapper reward from vendors for stuff with an xp reward from vendors for stuff is effectively the same thing. If I were to do the same quantity of digging/crafting under your system as I do now I would end up with more xp and less dapper, so the net effect is that I am exchanging dapper for xp.

[Edit: As a side note (which you may have already guessed), I am not in favour of xp rewards of any kind from missions/quests. The xp earned should be the xp from performing the actions required for the quest only. This is (was) one of the things that makes Ryzom a superior game!]

richky wrote:My apologies - I did not intend to make you angry. I realize you did not directly propose buying xp. From my perspective though, replacing a dapper reward from vendors for stuff with an xp reward from vendors for stuff is effectively the same thing. If I were to do the same quantity of digging/crafting under your system as I do now I would end up with more xp and less dapper, so the net effect is that I am exchanging dapper for xp.

[Edit: As a side note (which you may have already guessed), I am not in favour of xp rewards of any kind from missions/quests. The xp earned should be the xp from performing the actions required for the quest only. This is (was) one of the things that makes Ryzom a superior game!]

First off: what about cats? Are you against them as well?
(I know that's mean but I would like people to seriously think about this without the knee jerk reaction: "OMG they're going to dumb down my game" because that's not what I'm suggesting...)

If someone were to suggest an xp reward for combat skills I would have been against it (probably for the same reasons as you are). However the reason crafters and diggers are as rich as they are is because of the grind they need to go through to level; in the process they create a whole lot of (useless) items that are then sold to the vendors (other players never see these).

Since a lot of people are crafters and diggers the population has lots and lots of dapper and nothing to spend them on making the dapper worthless.

Now the vendor system may have initially been intended as an outlet for the crafter/digger it is not (on the whole) used as such now as there is no need. Guilds provide their members with what they need and few (if any) items ever make it to the open market (the vendors).

While this may be oke for older players who have an established network of people to supply them with what they need newer players will first look to the vendors for their gear and find them lacking. Not, as you might have guessed, a great way to encourage newbies especially since they will soon realize there's just no way they can be self sufficient.

New players need to be able to buy their gear at vendors and not having to run around like mad asking desperately in uni to get the gear they need to enjoy the game; my suggestion will provide that and it will make the dapper worth some. (not bad I'd say for some simple changes...)

We could of course wait for the tradeskillers (crafters/diggers) to put up items out of the goodness of theirs hearts but if they haven't been doing that in the past there's no reason to assume they will in the forseeable future.

Crafting missions that give a (moderate) xp reward in addition to a (smaller) dapper reward will add incentive to:
A. take up crafting since the grind isn't too bad...
B. keep the vendors stocked with decent gear...

Frankly I don't think rewarding xp for crafting missions will take away a damn thing from our "superior" game but instead inserts some common sense into a crafting system that is overly grindy.

There are so many craft trees that even if you cut the time needed to master just one in half, it would still take forever to master them all.

Yes Ryzom is hard and we shouldn't change that but we should also think about the future and if new players leave because they can't get a decent sword or even a pair of boots there won't be one.



Though come to think of it, I do think that the stock on the vendors should reflect the number of items crafted through the missions if not the whole thing would be pointless...

(meaning if no one takes the missions there will be nothing on the vendors...)

Edit:

Please note that the xp reward is only a part of the idea without it it might still work, the point is to have missions to put stock of decent quality onto the vendors so that people can spend their dappers there on stuff worth buying.....

mind you without the xp reward tradeskillers would still generate a lot of dappers through their grind...

richky wrote:I'm kind of puzzled by this suggestion. The vendors are already supplied by the players (the NPC stuff could be removed as I'm sure nobody ever buys it) so it looks like all you are proposing are ways to buy dig/craft xp for dapper.

To me this looks like it would just have the effect of making xp as worthless as dapper already is (though cats have already gone a long way towards making that happen).

Does that count towards "being against them" Michelb?
*shakes head*

CU
Acridiel

acridiel wrote:Does that count towards "being against them" Michelb?
*shakes head*

CU
Acridiel

Missed that one I guess not that it matters.

By the way the name's Machieltje as can be read in my sig...

Now please work with me people the details aren't set in stone and I'm not even sure it will work as I hope but so far no one has come up with a better idea.

at the very least new players will have some decent gear to buy...

So what I hope to achieve with this plan is less dapper in everyones pockets and more stuff to buy with said dapper now isn't that what everyone's been asking for?


Right now we dig and craft mainly for the garbage bin and make dapper in the process, dapper we can't spend since there's nothing worth spending it on...

In order to level craft you'll have to dig so where a fighter can simply level 2H edge (one skill) a crafter has to level two (dig and craft) so a crafter will spend twice ( more actually since leveling dig is sloooow) the time of the fighter to get a master.

Now I've been crafting since day one yet I rarely make something usefull. Most of what I craft is vendor junk which I simply dump in a black hole. Surprisingly I actually get payed to destroy stuff, does this make sense to you?

Don't like the xp reward? Think of it this way the mission giver is a teacher giving you a task (homework if you like) when you hand it in you'll get a grade (xp) and so you learn to be a better crafter... Besides the real skill in crafting isn't in the button pushing it's the recipes and no matter how hard you grind you'll still have to experiment to figure those out...

richky wrote:(the NPC stuff could be removed as I'm sure nobody ever buys it)

That isn't correct that way. There used to be some rare NPC stuff that was superior to what a player usually could craft. And instead removing the NPC items, I would like to see the old itemization again.

thlau wrote:And instead removing the NPC items, I would like to see the old itemization again.

Not sure what you mean by this, I'm sure you don't mean introducing "phat lewt" but I can't figure out what you're suggesting here.

michielb wrote:Not sure what you mean by this, I'm sure you don't mean introducing "phat lewt" but I can't figure out what you're suggesting here.

Hmm, no it was more an exchange of superior stats for no attribute boni, and of course a plain look

If you like I can show you a few items of which I speak in game. And they were pretty rare. About 2-5 different types of items spread over all merchants and hawkers which change once every Jena Year, and then with a patch all those items vanished.

I speak about Choice NPC items, btw. And yes, I bought them.

thlau wrote:Hmm, no it was more an exchange of superior stats for no attribute boni, and of course a plain look

If you like I can show you a few items of which I speak in game. And they were pretty rare. About 2-5 different types of items spread over all merchants and hawkers which change once every Jena Year, and then with a patch all those items vanished.

I speak about Choice NPC items, btw. And yes, I bought them.

I would love to see these items as I've never even suspected such items even existed.

But what I suggest is similar; Choice items on vendors but not items that magically apear but items crafted by players, players who did this because of an NPC mission asking for supplies...

Yes, as Acridiel pointed out, I am very definitely against cats. I consider them to be a major contributing factor in the decline of Ryzom, but that is another discussion .

To try to be more constructive here with the issue of dapper and the quality of supplies on the vendors... I think the simplest solution (or partial solution) would be to reduce the dapper received from the vendors for stuff. If you want to make dapper from selling crafts they should be sold on to players, not just dumped on the vendor. Selling a packer load of goods only to the vendor should do little more than cover the cost of a couple TP tickets.

Some improvements to the crafting window would also help considerably in making it easier for crafters to make saleable sets:
- make it so that when I change from a vest pattern to a pants pattern in the craft window I don't have to reload all the mats into the boxes. Making a full set as it is now is a nuisance.
- put a QL setting in the craft window so that if I want to make a QL 100 set from QL 200 mats I don't have to edit my stanzas (or keep multiples on my toolbars).

Then, as a last resort, the NPC items on the vendor should be of about the same quality as the worst set of choice gear (or maybe decent quality fine gear) that a crafter could come up with to set a kind of minimum standard for what should be offered for sale.