Ryzom

[message deleted]

Alright, I misinterpreted your request and I´m sorry for it.
But I´m glad that you understand my reaction too.

I admit I was quite a bit worked up last night, because yes, it IS a pretty sensitive issue for me personally. Even if I myself am not a crafter of renown and had quite some similar experiences as you had.

And while it is of course frustrating to see this "monkey amp" of yours to be better than the "carefully baked" one it simply was a freak coincidence, a positive hit of Murphy´s law so to say. At least thats my best guess, because THAT never happened to me in all the four years I´m playing. Lucky monkey you

I did not really want to offend anyone, just to express what I still feel and think about the issue. I know others who feel the same way, but would never write openly about on the boards, because they are much too kind and modest people.
I for myself think such a think is an abomination. And while I know I will never be able to do anything about it and someone WILL finally come up with such a program, or already has I don´t know, I´ll at least do my best to try and keep people from spoiling their fun with it.

I just don´t see the point in playing a game if I know that I can´t "loose".

Just as I don´t see the point in some people actually paying other people to level their WoW Characters to max. Paying someone to play a Game I pay for. ARGH! *headdesk*

Anyway, I´m glad you did not take offense on my rant up there and I´ll clean up my own mess, mind you
*gets out the mop and starts cleaning*

CU
Acridiel

chibiarc wrote:<-- I claim I do

Well once someone does understand it completely, down to the last %, then all it takes to make this "recipe maker" would be some programming and a lot of database entries.

Unless you actually use it in such a program though, I don't think knowing the explicit formula gives that much of an advantage 'in the field' over having an intuitive feeling of it from years of crafting. Which is another reason why I wouldn't just give it out to new crafters; I don't think it would mean anything to them until they've extensively experienced the effect for themselves.

brash1963 wrote:Yes, it was apparently the 'secondary' effect that zinged me. In addition another kind person explained some concepts about lowering qualities (ie, deliberately using Basic instead of Choice even for the same mat) in some components actually raising the impact even though it seems counter intuitive. I think on my 'best' suit I had overloaded "too good" of materials in certain places, while the leftover 'monkey suit' used poorer qualities (which made no sense to me at the time, heh).

You've already got the basic idea of it then. You can indeed go 'too high' and 'overload', and once you realise that, things start making more sense.

A good way to get to know it better is to just start with any recipee and then replace one mat at a time and see what it does. If you've picked up the magic amplifier pattern on Silan, that's a good one to learn from, since the secondary effect plays up most strongly in amplifiers. So much I still think of it as the "zun-effect" myself, actually. Get ahold of some different types of ambers and see what happens if you use poorer qualities grip and shaft, with this amber or with that amber.

Eventually you may even 'get' everything completely, but you will have to accept in advance that even then you'll never be able to *predict* every outcome in advance. You'll slowly get a better and better idea of which effect the mats will have, but in the end you'll never *know* until you try it, and you'll never stop coming across outcomes that surprise you.

sidusar wrote: The only thing it doesn't tell you is the 'secondary effect' in crafting; that lowering some stats can sometimes raise other seemingly unrelated stats, and vice-versa, when according to the sum of the material stats alone, it shouldn't. I guess you've already met this effect.

You forgot the "tertiary effect" in crafting; that knowing about the primary and secondary effects can mean nothing when the fikin random number generator decides to degrade your craft and throw you some lowered stats. This effect with unforeseen consequences has been mitigated with a recent patch, reducing it. Unlike the secondary effect, it takes a crafter just a few crafts, specially with carefully gathered and selected materials, to know about the existence of the "ICBIDA" effect (I can't believe I degraded again effect).

This ICBIDA effect has also motivated research for novel, advanced mechanisms for crafting, some based on experimental research, some based on mathematical theories. The experimetal research concluded that, it is waaaay harder to degrade if you craft with a craft tool bought in a town from race that is not your own and looking east when crafting. Removing random pieces of equipment helps too. Pressing shift space before you click on the craft button vastly reduces degrading chance, specially if holding a stuffed yubo and clicking on the mouse button *softly*. The mathematical theories state that, if you degrade say once out of ten, then you craft until you get 9 non degrades and you are kinda sure that next one you'll degade, or, applying the reasoning "if A implies B then maybe C", that if you degrade you have 9 next crafts where it is mathematically impossible to degrade. For some extrange reason, the author of the theroies omitted the proofs (allegedly due to lack of space in the margin) and surprisingly, he's broke and flipping burgers after applying his own theory in finances

In summary, crafting is cool but telling your customer that the sup jewel degraded "again", the 5th jewel when you have more than 80% success rate is one of them "oh joy" moments...

Yours

Ani

sidusar wrote:Well once someone does understand it completely, down to the last %, then all it takes to make this "recipe maker" would be some programming and a lot of database entries.

Unless you actually use it in such a program though, I don't think knowing the explicit formula gives that much of an advantage 'in the field' over having an intuitive feeling of it from years of crafting.

I agree on the first, I disagree on the second. Knowing what exactly triggers what effect is the key to some excellent crafts. Even without any computing power, you can usually tell from the recipe how close it is to the optimum.
If it even can be predicted before actually crafted you can optimize the workflow alot. But yes, nothing for a player just started. Only something for oldies who need confirmation of existence questions.