Ryzom

mithur wrote:Yeah, but for that working, the 6000 or 11000 dappers has to have some value (And now it hasn't any value). Then, that price changes will come alone (I'll see my wages, and I see that there are a lot of (i.e.) shaft >q150 at 3000 piece. So I put mine at 2800. But if I see that there aren't cheap shaft, I put mine at 6000. and, once (or more) at day, I return to a hawker or vendor to recheck and change (if neccesary) the price.

But the system fails because there aren't a real value for dappers. Yes, there are needed more money leaks.

I think that the first leak must be the trainers: at low level each 10 xp vuy from them, must cost at least 1.000-10.000 dps. At high leves much, much more (Even 1M Each 10 xp at 240-250). And when you get a title, you'll need go to the Royal Office (i.e.) to confirm it and can use it, being some titles more costly than anothers.

And, BTW, the equipment must have less live, IMHO. Usually you overgrown the low level equipment before it breaks (Except the picks for harvest).

And the melktoub food must cost at least four times. That could make that a low-mid level char like mine (100/50/120/130) can't have two packers and a mount (Or only if the character *really* work for it). I think it's excessive.

And luxury items, that the PC could show everywhere. Some PCs could take the wealth as an objective, and that could be good fo economy. But for that, some external signs of wealth are needed.

And so on...

if the merchant sold q150+ npc mats the dappers would have value. you say the 6000 or 11,000 need to have value for it to work, at the moment the don't have value, but as soon as you can go buy a q250 npc mat they have instant value.

iphdrunk wrote:(In veery simple terms) In theory, precisely, the currency appears to overcome the limitations of the barter/trade system, as a "universal" compensation means in either side of the trade. In other words, the trade system is limited by the traders "needs". Quoting wikipeds: "The use of money provides an alternative to barter, which is considered in a modern, complex economy to be inefficient because it requires a coincidence of wants between traders, and an agreement that these needs are of equal value, before a transaction can occur. The efficiency gains through the use of money are thought to encourage trade and the division of labour, in turn increasing productivity and wealth."

Nearly all of the people that become crafters in a barter system do it out of a genuine love of crafting or wanting to help others get the items they need. In a monetary system though you get allot of crafters that are just doing it to make as much money as possible so that their needs are taken care off.

A monetary system encourages stockpiling towards your possible future needs. You can always keep making money constantly and stockpiling more and more. In a barter system everyone has their upper limits on stockpiling where they don't need more and because of that there tends to be less fixation on money and the requirement of being paid because you can always catch up. There is no constant earning treadmill that gets harder and harder to keep up with the longer you’re off it.

e.g. From all the MMOs I've played I've never encountered as helpfull and giving a crafter community. Sure I haven't been trying to get any of the really high skill level or rare items but in other games the majority of crafters would still get as much return for low skill equipment as they could because it all adds up into their stockpile in case they need something.

(Also while our economy here is complex I don't know if I'd call it modern )

iphdrunk wrote:Ex: If I make boots and I need a sword, the sword crafter may not need my boots, or we do not agree on how many boots I should craft to get that living sword. Of course, I can always ask the sword crafter what he needs (e.g. pants) and try to find someone who crafts pants and needs boots, but the process is... let's say not as efficient as if I am able to give the sword maker something which we are confident he'll be able to use to get what he needs. For this, everyone involved needs to agree on the universal meaning of the currency and its value. Of course, this may not be a "bad thing" since as you state, it favours MMRPG player interaction, but the drawback is that you may not be able to satisfy your needs: I want a supreme PvP jewel set, no matter what I try, I can't get it. In a perfect world, one should be able to buy it with dappers, whatever it's price would be w.r.t. its value.

It is a bit unlikely that the crafter would have such narrow wants though, or that you'd only be able to provide boots. I admit that doesn't mean you'll always at that time be able to provide what that crafter needs but it gives you a better chance then in this example and if he really doesn't need anything isn't it better that another crafter that can make what you want and does need something is the one you trade with?

iphdrunk wrote: Economy has been an interesting aspect of the game for me (there have been interesting posts about it months ago, discussing the roots of the problem such as lack of money sinks, lack of "luxury items", unlimited resources, lack of decreasing demand from merchants, etc. but I can't dig them at the mo) and I agree it needs a serious revamp, but it is complicated.

It's makes for an interesting discussion. I'm probably in a small minority in liking that the dapper isn't worth much to anyone though

bgraz wrote:if the merchant sold q150+ npc mats the dappers would have value. you say the 6000 or 11,000 need to have value for it to work, at the moment the don't have value, but as soon as you can go buy a q250 npc mat they have instant value.

Not sure at all. I'm a 130 Crafter, and the npc mats aren't a help. I'm not sure if at 250 someone will find osme help at them. After all, the objective of a good market system is make things that anuyone want buy and use.

If the npc vendors sell standard staff (Basic/Fine, even choice) mats, it will be OK for grind craft, but all the objects make for it will be bad objects. The market will be (again) flooded by bad objects. Same that now, but maybe in a bigger quantity.

If the npc vendors sell ex and sup mats, that could devaluate the diggin, and that's maybe a bad idea (Not sure, after all the diggin will be still the main income for most of the PC, so...).

But then, the npc mats could be Ex and Sup only, at very high price. Then, all the low-cost supply must come from PCs, and the quelity of the crafted objects with npc mats will be highter, making the market useful for something else than get dappers for materials.

That could be a good high-level leak, and a boost for the quality of the market. If I could buy some q130 Sup mats for an armour, at, let's say, for the entire set 2M, I'll work hard for make the dappers (Providing with a lot of mats the market) and making the money for my mats. And i even can buy some Ex and Ch to make a set of armour for 400K, and sell the armour for 500K. I can assure you that if, in this moment, I see a god Ex HA q130 in market at 500 or 600K, I'll buy it, no doubt. But there aren't that kind of armour in merchants *never*. I think that tthe objective is see that kind of armour in merchants.

mithur wrote:Not sure at all. I'm a 130 Crafter, and the npc mats aren't a help. I'm not sure if at 250 someone will find osme help at them. After all, the objective of a good market system is make things that anuyone want buy and use.

NPC mats are good for transferring dapper into experience.

mithur wrote:And, BTW, the equipment must have less live, IMHO. Usually you overgrown the low level equipment before it breaks (Except the picks for harvest).

Ah yes, the good old days, when almost nobody was wearing armor, and elementals and healers rarely used an amp, yea, that was better than what we have now indeed.

kaetemi wrote:Ah yes, the good old days, when almost nobody was wearing armor, and elementals and healers rarely used an amp, yea, that was better than what we have now indeed.

mmm... even when I had lvl50, I could afford an armour+weapon every few days. Is not like the people couldn't afford it. Today I earn 500K dappers/day, and I'm lvl 100. There are dappers everywhere...
And, if the things broke more frecuently, the people buy more. If people buy more, the market works better. If market works better, crafters do more "good" job and less "grinding" job.

I'd like to see more choices in housing, and reasonable maintenance fees for.... utilities like internal lighting, lets say.

The ultimate money sink would be to have a reasonable amount of item decay -- my impression is that Ryzom items decay VERY slowly -- they are full strength for a long time and then become useless (I think).

The current Barney-fan child-game version of SWG has no item decay at all. The pre-CU SWG if anything had too rapid item decay, advanced SWG players had to replace their weapons and armor every few weeks due to the effects of decay. Decay was a gold mine for SWG crafters and resource guys.

SWG had repair tools for decayed items -- crafters could earn money partially repairing decayed items and getting rid of a portion of the decay-induced damage. Repair was a temporary thing though -- once an item started decaying it could never be restored to its full potential, and could not be kept working at a decent level indefinitely.

Also, SWG weapons, armor, and clothing had "attachments" that boosted the performance of the item, this was another SWG money sink.

Thanks,
Amphiaraus

ark014 wrote:The ultimate money sink (..) decay (...) replace their weapons and armor every few weeks due to the effects of decay. Decay was a gold mine for SWG crafters and resource guys. (...) crafters could earn money partially repairing decayed items and getting rid of a portion of the decay-induced damage.

although good points in general, one particular aspect of Ryzom economy is that crafters and harvesters are, generally speaking, richer than fighers. These suggestions, although interesting, should not preclude specific ones targetted to crafters and harvesters. Money sinks for harvesters are, imho, crtitical, fostering harvesting for money, and justifying selling mats of all grades for dappers.

iphdrunk wrote:although good points in general, one particular aspect of Ryzom economy is that crafters and harvesters are, generally speaking, richer than fighers. These suggestions, although interesting, should not preclude specific ones targetted to crafters and harvesters. Money sinks for harvesters are, imho, crtitical, fostering harvesting for money, and justifying selling mats of all grades for dappers.

Ok; that's true (Even if almost all High-level figters I know are very good harvesters too). So the hunting, being more dangerous, I thing must give more materials (And probably of more quality) to be better in relation to harvesting.

I also think that degradation must be not only a use-issue, but a time-issue. If you have x hours the armour equipped, it decay one point of life. Then again, the focus gear for harvesters could be a good money sink.

A more flexible tool craft branche could be a money sink too. AFAIK, now the only utility of that branch is get the OP craft plans; if there were levels of tools as there are levels of weapons, that could be another good money sink.

And, at las, another good thing could be time-degrade of mats; it could help the stocking of mats that the people (Mainly guilds) does, and will make the market more flexible. You get 100 Sup mats, and you will not use rigth now; instead of stock it for months in GH, you sell it because in eigth days they'll be rotten. This also goes with lore; Atys is a living, dinamic planet, all is alive, all is about creation a decay.

I think that this last idea will be polemic...