Ryzom

vguerin wrote:As always Jyudas, well thought out but interpreted to best suit your desires.

Half empty, half full... all the same depending on who looks at it. Well written but this is an outlook and anyone looking at the lore is subject to interpret it their own way and mine does not match yours.

History is often changed based on changes in society and government etc... Our game lore adapting a bit may be having the same issues... refining and tweaking to fill gaps and holes.

If there was a proper context I likely wouldn't have any objections. (Other than implementaion and forcing it on people).
Its just we've gone from state A (Peace) to state C (War) without really passing through stage B (Tension/Strife). Maybe they're rushing for some reason?

I really find nothing incongruous in the Matis, Zorai and Fyros going to war for their Karavan and Kami patrons. The only part that I have trouble reconciling is the ease at which the Tryker would join with the Matis, their frequent foe and oppressors, and fight Zorai and Fyros, their oft-times allies. I can only attribute it to the irrationality of religion and the strong physical influence of the Karavan on the Tryker homins and government. I'm still looking for a historical analogy, something like an Ottoman province that breaks free of Ottoman domination, but then soon after joins them to fight the infidel?


P.S. Perhaps a good analogy would be English and French knights in the Medieval period, who were often fighting bitter wars against each other, but when the pope called for a Crusade during a lull in English-French conflict, both sides would send contingents and act begrudgingly as allies.

grimjim wrote:If there was a proper context I likely wouldn't have any objections. (Other than implementaion and forcing it on people).
Its just we've gone from state A (Peace) to state C (War) without really passing through stage B (Tension/Strife). Maybe they're rushing for some reason?

You are looking in the wrong place for the tension. The tension came when the Guild of Elias revealed that Jena was coming with a warfleet to surprise attack and destroy Ma-duk and the Kamis, and (incredibly to my mind) the Karavan confirmed that this was indeed true. Naturally Ma-duk and the Kamis were alarmed and angered by this news. So what we are seeing is a slow start to a Kami vs. Karavan war. The homins are just pawns or proxies. On the other hand, it probably doesn't take that much to cause homins to go to war, they were warring every 5 to 10 years before 2518, so we were about due for one anyway even without alien prodding.

grimjim wrote: Indeed, if I were a Karavan player I'd be pretty peeved as everything that seems to have happened in game or been talked about at events very much paints the Karavan as the bad guys, EVEN their own wording and speeches makes them sound greedy and destructive - which leaves one wondering how people can RP following them so blindly.

Up until the hypocrisy of the Kami during this current event over digging there has been nothing to suggest the Kami are 'bad guys' in any way, rather preservers and caretakers of Atys while Karavan just get portrayed as dangerous space-locusts with Jena coming to invade Atys. There is a lot of talk and RP about posession, demons and so on, but no events to redress the in game balance or to actually convince anyone of any of these facts.

I just wanted to point out that to the best of my knowledge, it was solely the Kami that told their followers to attack the other side in Aelius Dunes. (As far as higher powers anyway, I know some Matis representatives have made bloodthirsty speeche) The Karavan themselves however only asked their followers to simply go and gather materials for constrution, nothing about war. Yes, there is a mission to get that says "Fight for Jena" but there's no reason to think that's not purely defesive. After all, we can't get the materials if there are Kamists killing us all without resistance.

In fact, from an IC point of view Sehraci doesn't even believe a true war is going on. She merely sees faithful kamists following Kami requests blindly and fanatical Karavaneers who don't understand their goal in AD. If there was an official war, surely the capitals would be sending soldier groups to the front lines (NPCs)?

And IC, Sehraci finds the Kami edict to attack and be the agressors as good reason to suspect Ma-Duk as the souleater the Karavan claim. Those words came directly from Kami and not representatives of homin governments, as most other aggressive statements have. Not to mention the whole nuking harvesters thing, Sehr never liked that much at all. (Though she has a bit of a lavish and wasteful lifestyle and can't comprehend that Atys resources could ever run out)

Jyudas,

You are basing your argument off the nature of the races as you see them. However, this is not a war of governments and kingdoms. King Yrkanis did not strike the banners of Matia in order to liberate lands. The Zoria Mystics are not plotting raids to capture specimens for their disturbed experiments.

This is a battle between the Kami and the Karavan, and the reasons for violent conflict between those factions are so apparent they need not be quoted. The participants are volunteers, not conscripts. We do not march under the banner of His Majesty’s Royal Army, but rather, in Her Healing Light.

It could be said that Tryton himself brought this conflict to a head through is duplicity.

Jena was coming to defeat The Souleater, Tryton betrayed her. The Karavan asked their followers to gather materials from an ancient land in order to build a temple. The Kami ordered their followers to kill the Karavan harvesters. To more fully expose their deceit, the Kami have devised an edifice of their own, no doubt powered by the souls of fallen homins, in order to boost the power of their mad god. They have promised not to slaughter homins that are gathering materials to build this ghastly machine.

Jena’s faithful must now defend their harvesters against insane Kami predation, or risk allowing The Souleater to finish his power amplifier before Jena can protect us against him.

The role of the racial leaders in this conflict has been minimal. A few glib speeches, some reassuring gestures, and that was about it. Up until now there has been what might be characterized as an uneasy peace between Kami and Karavan, but we have known for months that the balance was not going to last for long. There has been no ‘rush to war’ simply a cease fire that was waiting to be breached by Kami marauders.

We must now defend ourselves against them, against the Kami, and against The Souleater himself; and prepare the way for Jena to return to Atys. May we all be found in Her Blessed Light.

Indeed, if I were a Karavan player I'd be pretty peeved as everything that seems to have happened in game or been talked about at events very much paints the Karavan as the bad guys, EVEN their own wording and speeches makes them sound greedy and destructive - which leaves one wondering how people can RP following them so blindly.

Up until the hypocrisy of the Kami during this current event over digging there has been nothing to suggest the Kami are 'bad guys' in any way, rather preservers and caretakers of Atys while Karavan just get portrayed as dangerous space-locusts with Jena coming to invade Atys. There is a lot of talk and RP about posession, demons and so on, but no events to redress the in game balance or to actually convince anyone of any of these facts.

Those that are both just and powerful are often portrayed negatively by agenda driven outlets. The Karavan speak plainly and act directly. They are consistent with their words and deeds. That Kami loyalist lie about them in their distorted records should come as no surprise. Deception is the primary tool of the Kami death-cult.

Have the Karavan ever killed a player character, ever? I didn't think so.

The same can not be said for the Kami. If you want direct proof of thier destructive nature, you need look no further. Those decieved by Kami lies will say they kill us to protect Atys, but the Kami slaughter-masters don't seem to have a problem allowing thier mind-slaves to continually harvest materials for Ma-Duk's death machine.

Atys is wonderfully capable of protecting herself. Sources explode and eventually fade away when there are no more materials to be had in an area. Long before there is any need to take a homin life, Atys has already, peacefully, solved the problem.

Did the Karavan order Jena’s faithful to kill those poor souls that are taken in by Kami lies? Of course not.

The Kami, however, gave direct instruction to their warmongers to massacre all those loyal to Jena that they can find. The heretics have taken that directive to the most bloodthirsty extreme, even going so far as to teleport into Yrkanis in order to do additional harm to homins that recently respawned there. Have we heard a word of reprimand from the Kami devils against these disturbed and despicable agents of evil?
Not a sound. These killers have become what their masters made them. I am sure Ma-Duk is pleased by the deaths of homins.

The Tryker firmly believe the Kami are able to possess homins. To a race devoted to individual freedom, this must strike at their very core. Do we have a specific account of this happening? No, but then we don't have a specific account of how the Zoria eat with thier masks on. Just because it isn't written somewhere doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Tryton himself said that the Kami feed of the souls of hominkind. It may seem easy to write this off as another deception by Tryton; but judging by his past actions, it seems to be his style to lie using the truth.

The Goo, a toxic purple sludge tied inextricably to the Kami and Ma-Duk, is known not only to burn the flesh of homins, but to rot the minds of any creature exposed to it for too long. Normally peaceful creatures become enraged, homins go insane. One has to wonder if the war device Ma-Duk is trying to build is a way to concentrate this mind-destroying power while minimizing the purple, burning side effects.

Still no evidence that the Kami are the destructive force on Atys?

Only because you refuse to see it.

I am trying to look at this from a neutral OOC perspective
While there is plenty of conjecture towards the 'evil' of the kami, manfully roleplayed to justify some of the anti-kami stance there's precious little actually in game to support it.

Unfortunately

You can't deny the Kami edict to attack harvesters in AD.

As well as the zero KT killing of harvesters to "protect Atys"

The biggest thing against the Karavan is the hunting of the Tryton spies in PR....
But that's easily justifiable if you take the point of view that stopping that information leak could avoid war altogether. Jena would have come unannounced, dealt with Ma-Duk mano a mano, and no homin bloodshed.

As opposed to what we have now.....

Edit:
Well, there's the Slaver's tribe too.

But when confronted with two higher powers:
-One which condoned killing of a couple homins in one particular PR incident and happen to marginally support a tribe which has slaves
-Or beings which themselves perpetually kill harvesters who dig "too much" (unless it suits their needs) as well as promoting their followers to kill other homins.

I'll take the former.


Also, Jyudas, you haven't addressed the issue that it is simply Karavan and Kami fanatics who are warring by choice. The four civilization governments are yet to get directly involved beyond speeches. If they choose to participate, then your essay becomes applicable.

grimjim wrote:I am trying to look at this from a neutral OOC perspective
While there is plenty of conjecture towards the 'evil' of the kami, manfully roleplayed to justify some of the anti-kami stance there's precious little actually in game to support it.

Look at the new Karavan propaganda announcements. They make some specific charges against the Kami, such as the charge that the Kami are making the Goo to poison the planet. Those accusations from Jena and the Kami's habit of smiting innocent foragers is plenty to justify anti-Kami actions for Jena's devoted followers (not to say that Riveit is one of those).

riveit wrote:Look at the new Karavan propaganda announcements. They make some specific charges against the Kami, such as the charge that the Kami are making the Goo to poison the planet. Those accusations from Jena and the Kami's habit of smiting innocent foragers is plenty to justify anti-Kami actions for Jena's devoted followers (not to say that Riveit is one of those).

But it is just propaganda with nothing whatsoever to back it up in the game, unlike vice versa. I think there SHOULD be stuff that paints the Kami in a bad light, stuff you can notice, interact with, stuff at events. Something to mix it up a little.