And the Pendulum Swings Which Way ?

[larwood]

Overall one thing I have noticed but am not yet prepared to comment fully on is that killing things takes a lot longer than it used to....

I beg to differ with this last statement (only regarding 2h melee)

I am a 2h AXE user, and happy about the change. I have noticed that I do kill things faster than before. I choce axes because you don't see them around much. People are using pikes, becuse Pikes are easier to craft (less mats)... so were more available. Now that won't be the case. I think this chnage will spice things up.

[jared96]

You forgot to mention that a pike has a greater reach now, making the wielder take 10% less damage and the fact that pikemen have Ignore armour!.

You musta missed this part :

"And yes, I am aware that the pike user now takes, suppossedly, (I havent seen a noticeable difference) less damage this is of little significance in team fighting. Going back to the numbers (80 % x 110 % x 110 % = 96.8 %)...still significantly less than the 108 % change on the axes / maces."

Pikeman have ignore armor whereas swords / axes have bleed.....seems like even steven. But accounting as I did above for the reduced damage, the pike is still a less effective weapon that it was before and the axe more effective than it was before.

[jared96]

You looked and the speed and the damage of the weapons only. You also touched very briefly on range. You failed to look at the specials for the different weapons as well (slow, ignore armor, bleed). A pike does have ignore armor which means damage is higher as well. So now the pike will be a good choice for a person wearing medium/heavy armor but may not be such a good choice for using against someone with light armor, maybe the axe/sword will be better now. This means that there will be a point to bringing multiple melee skills up now. If you wanted to do the most damage to someone in any kind armor maybe it will be best bringing both pike and 2H sword/axe up to lvl 250. Of course I am not saying these are the best combinations or anything, just using them as examples to show that the variations in the weapons will make more of a difference depending on the situation. Pike is no longer the best choice in all situations because of it's strength and ignore armor, it will only be most effective some of the time. I personally think this is a GREAT change.

No I took it all into consideration. First, as I have about as much interest in PvP as i do in the mating ruituals of dung beetles.....(I want no part of it)....this means absolutely nothing to me. The pike's range made it a good tool to keep adds off mages. To me that is its best feature.

Pike had ignore armor / Axe had bleed......advantage to both. The fact remais...you against a mob (ignoring bleed and ignore armor for the moment), the axe user now has an advantage he didn't have before. AGAIN, not saying the stats shouldnt be different. If you took one and made it 10 % faster at 10% less damage and the other the reverse you are on a level playing field. That field is no longer level.

The effectiveness, "doing the math", for a solo player (to make things simple) is that the pike user is now 96% as effective (yes, including all range, damage and speed effects) and an axe user is now 108 % more effective....a resultant 12.5% advantage.

If axe is gonna be 20% more damage and 10% slower (1.2 x .9 = 1.08), then
pike doing 10% less damge (not 20%), then do 10% more speed and 10% less damage taken (1.1 x 0.9 x 1.1 = 108.9) is a "better" distribution IMO.

That would give, within 1%, a variety of stats to use to your advanatge while still not imposing a 12% penalty on the pike user.

I domn't see how making the damage reduction 10% , a more equal distribution, ruins and of the points raised.

[jared96]

I beg to differ with this last statement (only regarding 2h melee)

I am a 2h AXE user, and happy about the change. I have noticed that I do kill things faster than before. I choce axes because you don't see them around much. People are using pikes, becuse Pikes are easier to craft (less mats)... so were more available. Now that won't be the case. I think this chnage will spice things up.

Actually you are agreeing with me. A solo player with an axe does kill things a lot faster than before....you have just increased your damage per minute by 8 percent. And as for crafting usally peeps want to craft things with MORE mats than less as they level faster.....one of the reasons why peeps hate crafting earings....also why u see peeps anxious to get Hi quaklity plans as they sue more mats without providing anything significant other than "shelf life". With HQ plans, you turn in armor to GH with more HP on it when yu upgrade to the enxt level.

What I said about things taking longer was "in team". I think the heal changes are great but one side effect is that mages can't bomb bomb bomb with huge HP credits so have toned their spells down to let healers keep up.

For 90% of gameplay, it seems to be great but for killing 5* plods and bosses to go from 3 minutes tio 8 can be boring. Again, haven't formed a final opinion yet but having fought 5* ploderos on consecutive nights, I can tell you that time to kill was way too long Could have been peeps getting used to new stuff...could have been unanticpated side effect of changes....not sure yet....noted it in case anyone else was seeing same. Now tonite, Plod hunting went a bit better so maybe it is team makeup changes needed....maybe its somethin else....time will tell.

[iphdrunk]

I domn't see how making the damage reduction 10% , a more equal distribution, ruins and of the points raised.

just a question, since I haven't bothered myself and it can balance things out a bit more. Which are the max dodge and parry values you can get on the weapons? I thought that if pike provided less damage per minute but increased parry, it was a good trade-off.

[caitiff]

so say the axe does 20% more damage or whatever but the mob's armor blocks 30% of it, the axe is now doing less damage. The pike can pass this armor by ignoring it therefore it ends up doing more damage. You are ignoring parts of the equation or strategy and trying to compair them then. Look at it all and you get a different result. You yourself stated "(ignoring bleed and ignore armor for the moment)" so I am not just throughing words in your mouth saying you are ignoring part of the equation because you said you are.

[iwojimmy]

Is anyone factoring in action costs to these calculations ?

If something does 30 hpm at 300 damage, and a different weopon does 200 damage at 45 hpm (just making these numbers up), then at first glance the damage over time is identical... however you are paying in life and stamina 50% extra for the faster weopon.

a Road Safety slogan comes to mind
.. the faster you go, the faster you GO ..

[jared96]

so say the axe does 20% more damage or whatever but the mob's armor blocks 30% of it, the axe is now doing less damage. The pike can pass this armor by ignoring it therefore it ends up doing more damage. You are ignoring parts of the equation or strategy and trying to compair them then. Look at it all and you get a different result. You yourself stated "(ignoring bleed and ignore armor for the moment)" so I am not just throughing words in your mouth saying you are ignoring part of the equation because you said you are.

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I ignored the other aspects because we getting into apples and oranges. You cant bring "ignor armor" into the equation without recognizing that that difference is already offset by bleed.

Yes the pike can ignore armor...gteat for PvP if you into that sorta thing .... but I havent seen many mobs with armor tho..... As we had before, the "Ignore armor" aspect of a pike was offset by the bleed advantage of slashing weapons....a balance.....one advantage balanced by another different advantage. The way i see it however is that bleed works on far more mobs than ignore armor does, so the pike already was disadvantaged.

The proof is in the pudding so to speak....sure seeing a lot more people weilding axes of late. Havent had to craft or procure a pike request since patch whereas I have had 1 or 12 requests fort axes.

Again, have no problem with adjustments to make strategy more a part of the game but if you want to see a variety of wepons in use you have to provide for damage factor x hit rate factor x damage absorbed being equal. Within one at 1.08 and another at 0.96, there exists a clear advantage.

10 less damage, 10 % more speed and 10% less damage absored makes them comparable. Making any one of those numbers 20% unbalances the equation.

[mrshad]

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I ignored the other aspects because we getting into apples and oranges. You cant bring "ignor armor" into the equation without recognizing that that difference is already offset by bleed.

Yes the pike can ignore armor...gteat for PvP if you into that sorta thing .... but I havent seen many mobs with armor tho..... As we had before, the "Ignore armor" aspect of a pike was offset by the bleed advantage of slashing weapons....a balance.....one advantage balanced by another different advantage. The way i see it however is that bleed works on far more mobs than ignore armor does, so the pike already was disadvantaged.

The proof is in the pudding so to speak....sure seeing a lot more people weilding axes of late. Havent had to craft or procure a pike request since patch whereas I have had 1 or 12 requests fort axes.

Again, have no problem with adjustments to make strategy more a part of the game but if you want to see a variety of wepons in use you have to provide for damage factor x hit rate factor x damage absorbed being equal. Within one at 1.08 and another at 0.96, there exists a clear advantage.

10 less damage, 10 % more speed and 10% less damage absored makes them comparable. Making any one of those numbers 20% unbalances the equation.

But, it is a bit more complicated than that.
Sure, pikes have ignore armor, and that works great agianst mobs that are resistant to piercing dammage.

To say that ignore armor is offset by bleed isn't really telling the whole story.
Bleed actually makes you less effective. Sort of like Slow does.
The fact of the matter is that melee fighters simply can not use up enough credits to load thier actions with all the stanzas. I can not use max. damage, max. accuracy and max. bleed.

So, a trade off needs to be made. If I choose to add in bleed or ignore armor, I either need to lower damage or accuracy. When I am using a pike, and I am fighting a mob that is resistant to piercing dammage, it is to my benifit to lower dammage and increase IA, as the net effect is greater damage.

When I am using a sword or ax, it is not to my benifit to bleed at all. My dammage per minute will be higher if I forgo using bleed and concentrate on dammage and accurate attack.

The fact that IA yeilds a benifit, and bleed or slow do not, still makes pikes the more versital weapon.

This may not be true in PvP. Pikes against armored targets should definatly be the way to go, but using bleed against soft targets, like healers or nukers, may inflict some lasting interuption benifits; as bleed dammage continues even after the inflictor is dead.

Anyway, my point here is, compared to IA, bleed seems underpowered.

[iwojimmy]

Ignore armour is only useful against things with armour, when Im hunting I try to avoid them anyway as i dont want to waste the stam/hp credits..
Bleed is effective against everything, and creatures with resistance to slashing can be avoided ( to an extent).
I dont have bleed as my standard attack action, but it is part of my attack-after-dodge setup. Gets used often enough