Ryzom

marct wrote:The main reason I see for the broken economy is the player population. The population is not only small, but the percentage of players that are 'dedicated' (6+ hours a day) or 'uber-dedicated' (10+hours a day) to the overall population size is the main problem. Our guild is starting to become large, and it is clear that at some point in the near future as our size grows it will be impossible to supply all of our members with the equipment they require.

I see a day in the near future where choice equipment will be the norm, and a premium will truley be placed on supreme and excellent items.

I'm not sure that I understand why the "economy" is so obviously broken. Nor am I understanding quite how your microcosm (Guild) scenario is symptomatic of a macrocosmic problem.
Don't Guild crafters supply Guild members for little or no cost? If so, doesn't that in itself ruin the economy?

I'm currently crafting q40 armor and melee weapons, which is also at or close to the max that I can use. Up until now I've made most of my own (light) armor, save the vest. In the interest of self-preservation, I'll buy a vest that is the best protection that I can wear without significantly harming my funds. (I'm going to need a Mek & apartment soon) What I "grind" out from animal drops gets sold directly to the NPC, as well as any crafting nightmares. [Please homins! Don't sell your crafting mutations on to other players!].

What I craft for myself is all Choice/Excellent, and for every one I keep, 4 more will get sold on to players - at a 10% markup. If it doesn't sell in seven days, I'll retrieve or destroy it. I do the same with grade Fine mats that I won't use in "grinding". If someone seems to be buying my Fine gingo leather, then good,I'll make more available. If grade Basic doesn't sell, thats OK, I'll sell it directly to the NPC next time. This is my understanding of a functioning economy; I'm participating in, and reacting to the market. My items/mats seem to sell alright, but if they don't then its more likely a demographics issue than an economic one. If some part of this economy is non-functional, I am not seeing it.

There is only one thing I like about the BB concept, but it has not been mentioned yet. Ryzom's 'market' is synthetic, but not fully dynamic. While the merchant does manage the sale of player items, he's also pushing his own grade Basic items. We can tell when OUR items are sold, and which ones don't sell. We cannot see how the NPC goods sell, or dont sell. They exist as a stop-gap to ensure that some mats are always available to players, but their "immunity" (if you will) from the economy also effects the economy in its own way.

I like the fact that the BB concept would provide direct insight to what the player demand truly is, compared to buying only from a merchant, in which case the player may not find what he wants but only the next best thing based on what is available.

I agree wholeheartedly about the need to assist new players. Ryzom does, unfortunately, have a pretty steep learning curve. This, however, should be a topic for another thread.

douph wrote: ...While the merchant does manage the sale of player items, he's also pushing his own grade Basic items. We can tell when OUR items are sold, and which ones don't sell. We cannot see how the NPC goods sell, or dont sell. They exist as a stop-gap to ensure that some mats are always available to players, but their "immunity" (if you will) from the economy also effects the economy in its own way....

The "problems" are more apparent at higher levels, as NPC merchants only sell their basic items up to q100

Ok, imagine this. All those missions to deliver notes from X npc to Y npc...you could imagine that you are delivering those bullitines from town to town, or taking them to those that DO deliver them.

Pony express...about the technology that we are talking about in game.

mtsmith wrote:While this sounds great in theory and would definitely improve playability, it is not really very realistic. I think most would agree that better realism helps much to make the entire experience much more enjoyable.

In a game where getting the materials to level your trade skills is so hard, or so expensive. It only makes sense that guildmates will see the benefits of "you scratch my back, I scratch yours". The melee player types go out and do their thing...they kill mobs, and gather all the dropped loot that the group can carry, and take it to the crafters. The crafters grind levels, and maybe the loot is the right type that they CAN make good gear...but maybe not.

At any rate, the crafter AND the melee both win. Those that lose are those that are NOT guilded. And I can imagine it would really hurt. Their options, none of which really work are to deal with crap gear, find out who CAN and WILL make stuff and level digging as much as they can, OR make ALL of their own gear (see deal with crap gear).

I tried the self suffiencency thing (in real life I believe the Devine helps those that do all they can on their own before they ask for help), but it became clear around level 60 digger (level OH I think 25 all crafting) that this jane of all trades thing was INSANE. It was taking roughly three TIMES the materials to level crafting as it was foraging (this was PRE patch one, after the reset of skills I went with ONLY armor and one or two melee weps for crafting). And even when I would level one level foraging, then craft a half a level, and go level THREE levels mage and melee, I still ended up having to buy grinding mats to complete the crafting level.

Leveling is WAY outta ballance. When ONE skill tree, regardless of what that skill does, takes more time, effort or materials than ANY other skill tree, and that skill tree is RELIED upon by ALL the other skill trees. It is only a matter of time that the imballance will be felt in a MAJOR way.

Is there a solution for this trouble? Honestly...I do not know. I HOPE so. And clearly guilds have found ways around this "bump" in the game road. Kinda like the "OH you don't want us to travel do you?" world tours. Proof that players FIND a way to do what they want to do in a game.

And Douph after Q60, the learning/xp curve changes DRAMATICALLY. If you add into the mix the fact that jewel crafting has INSANE mat/level requirements. Then you start to see why the imballances hit the after level 100 players MUCH harder than the lower levels.

The skill trees pretty much force you to either grind your brains out to level earrings, THEN rings, THEN necklaces, OR give up on generalizing and just go for one or two items. The idea of hitting level 250 in jewel crafting is enough to make my blood freeze. (for the realists, you would very likely have to either hunt a few species to extinction, OR use a pile of materials large enough to form your own NEW planet, just to get to level 250 EARRINGS. And I think I am only exagerating a tiny bit, maybe it would just be a small moon.)

lyrah68 wrote: The idea of hitting level 250 in jewel crafting is enough to make my blood freeze. (for the realists, you would very likely have to either hunt a few species to extinction, OR use a pile of materials large enough to form your own NEW planet, just to get to level 250 EARRINGS. And I think I am only exagerating a tiny bit, maybe it would just be a small moon.)

Just for a bit of perspective from personal experience... Jewelcrafting is hard to get up there, yes. But I think it actually takes more mats to level armor crafting. Also, it's generally considered a lot easier to level with the high-mat pattern (diadem) rather than the low mat one (earrings).

I don't think that there are any problems with the Atys economy that can't be fixed by a larger server population, and something to spend money on so people will start to look for ways to earn it. Both may well arrive when they release chpt 3.

keoni wrote:Also, it's generally considered a lot easier to level with the high-mat pattern (diadem) rather than the low mat one (earrings).

Let's say u hit level 100 with diadem or pendant craft. Try to see the rate of succes at earrings. If you left them at 51, should be around 30%. So. what are you going to do? Come back and harvest q50 for cr** xp to level earrings? Buy basic mats (1051 dappers/mat) of q50 from NPC? Use your precious q100 mats to get 70 degraded items out of 100?

Or you lower the q of the jewels u make ... and you are back to the starting point?

vutescu wrote:Let's say u hit level 100 with diadem or pendant craft. Try to see the rate of succes at earrings. If you left them at 51, should be around 30%. So. what are you going to do? Come back and harvest q50 for cr** xp to level earrings? Buy basic mats (1051 dappers/mat) of q50 from NPC? Use your precious q100 mats to get 70 degraded items out of 100?

Or you lower the q of the jewels u make ... and you are back to the starting point?

Success rate and success/degrade ratio are two different things. Experience is largely based on the difference between crafting level and crafting plan (every 25 levels increases it by 100%, so using a q100 action for a jewel craft at level 50 would get you three times as much experience as using a q50 action). Also degrade experience scales along with it - a q33 degrade using a q100 action will get you the same amount of experience as a q50 success. In other words, the reward for crafting at a higher q than your level is very worth it.

madnak wrote:In other words, the reward for crafting at a higher q than your level is very worth it.

^^ What he said...

So... What you're saying is that the problem is among high level characters, both in manufacturing shortfall and in procurement of resources of adequate q leading to said shortfall?

I don't honestly see how an influx of level 20 players will solve this.
(Yay, Windermeer's open again!)

If it is the Guilds who are organizing/perpetrating the majority of the safaris to the Prime Roots for such "adequate" materials (yes, some hunting occurs but lets focus economy...), and upon their return gathered mats go directly to storage in the Guild Hall, then yes, I can see a problem there. That would mean that a majority of high-q mats will never reach the merchant (or through him, any non-aligned players). Yes, this is how monopolies strangle free-market systems.

Incidentaly, I do jewelry crafting, but NOT to create quality items. I was going to completely forego jewelry as another sinkhole for crafting points that were scarce to start with. I realised, however, that there were an AWFUL lot of toenails & eyeballs (mmmmm... toenails & eyeballs... drooooool.....) lying around with nothing to do. So now I do low-level earrings as a way to eventually grind out extra crafting points to funnel into melee and armor crafting! So the leftover eyeballs can actually be useful even if they don't get used in the soup!

My observation on dappers decreasing in value is due to inflation. In real life, in order to gain a dollar someone else must lose a dollar. In Ryzom, like other games, currency is created with interactions with NPCs and the total ammount of dappers that exist on the NA server increases every day. Dappers are also destroyed with teleporters, apartments, packers, npc sales, player sold goods through npcs and so on. As a lev 100+ crafter, I create many more dappers than I destroy. Because it's mainly the supply side that causes the inflation, there is little benefit to the crafter to sell for dappers.

Where does the value of currency come from? In the United States, the value of the dollar used to have value because the US government had $1 worth of gold to back each dollar of currency. Now it has value because it represents a promise of value (and US federal law makes it illegal to refuse US legal currency in exchange for goods or services). The dapper has value because it can be used to buy goods and teleport tickets. However, if dappers can no longer be used to buy goods, their value will decrease considerably and commerce will be conducted by bartering goods for mats. The venture capital to start crafting does not require the expenditure of dappers to make dappers (save for the very small cost of crafting tools).

In order to help the economy, I will sell up to choice and maybe goods made from harvested excellent mats for dappers even though I don't need them. I encourage every other crafter to do the same. If people see my goods on the market and want an excellent or supreme version of that quality, they can send a tell and we can arrange some trade. I will craft choice goods lower than my max quality if requested but I try to stay away from q50 and lower so that I don't take the market demand away from any low level crafters (who actually might need dappers).

There is no law to enforce the value of dappers so it's up to us to prevent the dapper from becoming worthless. Please sell at least choice mat goods for dappers on the market.

Ivarion
The Silver Watch