Ryzom

hmm.. a new view on this delima perhaps is needed

as a harvestor / crafter, if i work solo, i have to grind not only my crafting ability up but my harvest ability in equal to my craft.

say you want a q210 weapon from me

i need to get my harvest up to obtain q210 mats
i need to get my craft tree branch up in the requested weapon or armor item to q210

now if you want a full set of armor
i have to get 1 branch up to q210 and the other branches up high enough so that i don't waste tons of mats failing

now you say crafters charge an arm and a leg
now many hours do you think it took that one crafter to get high enough to make you that q210 piece of armor, or full set of armor

how many harvestors did it take to level up to supply the crafter the mats

now, i see people demand a certain level from the q of material, as in excelent or supreme

you have to have someone find the mats to make the armor, who need paid, then you need the producer to get paid, and based on the Q you want, it could take a party to protect the harvestors to get the mats to supply the crafter to make your armor

thats 5 more people or so that need paid

so outragous prices? i think not

zumwalt wrote:so outragous prices? i think not

Actually, considering that 99% of what I do in game is dig and craft.. I have every place to call the typical prices on the vendor overpriced.

213 Jungle harvesting, 174 Prime roots, 100 Desert. In addition to that, I can craft Zorai and Fyros jewelry to 120, Zorai, Fyros, and Tryker Medium armor at 160 high quality, with the only lacking tree being gloves at 135, and Zorai amps at 120 (fyros weapon crafting is currently only 90 in comparison due to not bothering to spend the points on that tree so that it is equal) and all Zorai 1h weapons patterns except for the staff. I also have Fyros and Zorai LA patterns, but dont really craft them often, but at level 100 as well.

So I of all people would know just how much time, and mats, it takes for pretty much anything someone could make. And, I did it all *solo*.

The thing I find particularly laughable, is that those who overprice thier items (400+k for a light armor vest?? please.) is that these are the very same people who over and over again state here "Dappers are worthless." If those dappers are so worthless, drop those prices.. Pretty simple logic there.

Rant time!

In one hour I can get over 600,000 dappers just from digging and selling to NPCs. It takes me at least two hours to get decent excellent mats for a single weapon above q160. If I am going to break even on that weapon, even in theory, I will need to charge 1.2 million dappers. I doubt it. Let's not even get into supremes. With the insane nexus weather conditions, inconsistent boss drops, and big guilds camping the few sup spots there are... Not a chance.

If you want a choice weapon at any q up to 220 you can get it easily. There are many crafters who will be happy to craft you a medium-plan weapon of any quality for free if you bring the mats. If you can't harvest there are plenty of harvesters who will help you get those choice mats. It's true you have to use the community instead of the markets - craft is very unrewarding and if someone makes you a weapon they're generally doing you a favor. Thankfull there are oodles of crafters willing to do those favors.

But I am guessing that your issue isn't being unable to find any weapon of the right quality, it's being able to find a matis supreme living weapon of that quality, without providing the mats, and for less than the price of the mats used to create it. I might be misjudging you here, but I've met many people who think excellent arma mats aren't good enough for their offensive amps, because not all of the stats are 90%+. I've met level 50s who decided not to take a weapon I offered because they "needed" a living plan (for their q60 weapon at that). I've had commisioned works refused because "so-and-so has a higher damage with his supreme sword." If you are really having trouble finding any weapons of the right quality, give me (Saiwin) a tell in game and I'll fix that up for you. But if you want the best of the best, well, good luck. Develop a relationship with a crafter. Sell your soul. Whatever. And recognize how lucky you are if you manage to succeed.

If those dappers are so worthless, drop those prices.. Pretty simple logic there.

Matter of perspective.

Your perspecitive is that you gained your levels solo, and to you, its cheesy to charge what you perceive is an outragous price.

Others perspective is that it was there time and there dime to grind up to make that wanted item and they will charge an arm and a leg for it.

Are dappers worthless?
Well think about this for a second, how many times have you gone to market and bought excellent / supreme mats for a conceivable reasonable price?

Could it be possibly that the person with the worthless dappers charges the dappers anyway do to time and effort to get where they are?

Again, matter of perspective.

In life, I spent over 18 years to obtain my knowledge and get to the career level I desire, so I ask a wage based on 18 years of experience.

I didn't get here over night.

In game, I ask prices for items I sell based on time I spent getting where I am, Same concept, and as you say, "Pretty Simple Logic There."

Everyting comes with a price, and that price is subject to that single persons perspective, its up to the consumer to decide to pay that price, as they percive the price should be.

I can't argue with you on the matter of perspective, because I agree. All of life, be it in game or the real world, is a matter of perspective. I'm one of those people that do what I do, be it in a game or in life, because I enjoy it to some degree or another, financial interests are a far second in importance to me. If I don't enjoy doing it and don't want to do it, no matter of wealth will make me any more likely to decide that's worth pursuing.

I'll never claim money/dappers/silver etc is "worthless", because.. well, you need it, for whatever, but there's a difference between needing, and wanting. Living a life that's fueled by how much wealth one can gather before time is up is utterly confusing to me, because no matter how much wealth one gathers, it's never enough. That, while it confuses me, doesn't offend me. What offends me, is those that while they claim that the monetary system is worthless, turn around and charge some seriously high prices on thier stuff, that even for choice, is often times junk. I'm not accusing anyone in particular, let me make that clear.

But.. for an example, I've seen q190 amps, excellent ones, being sold for several hundred thousand dappers.. yet, the stats on those amps simply put.. blow. I can't remember the stats exactly, but it's generally one stat is decent, 80+%, but then all the other stats are just plain scary. Mid 60's, at best. My general complaint here, is if you can make it, make it good, not good enough.

I hold myself to those standards, in everything I do, there's no reason others can't as well.

I'm a Crafter, with a capital C, because I take pride in what I do, not because of what it could bring me.

morgan73 wrote:But.. for an example, I've seen q190 amps, excellent ones, being sold for several hundred thousand dappers.. yet, the stats on those amps simply put.. blow. I can't remember the stats exactly, but it's generally one stat is decent, 80+%, but then all the other stats are just plain scary. Mid 60's, at best. My general complaint here, is if you can make it, make it good, not good enough.

Most likely that was a beng amp. Exc beng q200 can be found very easily in large quantity near Yrkanis (it's a mission-related source that never expires). The reason people sell exc beng amps is because beng is the only excellent amber type that is remotely easy to get at that quality. Amps aren't bad because the crafter is lazy - amps are mostly defined by the type of magic focus used. Excellent and supreme amber of the "good" types are quite rare and hard to get. Someone who takes pride in crafting doesn't necessarily "take pride" in standing around nexus for hours on end waiting for the right weather conditions. And if they do that, chances are they will save that amber for people who will appreciate it.

madnak wrote:Most likely that was a beng amp. Exc beng q200 can be found very easily in large quantity near Yrkanis (it's a mission-related source that never expires). The reason people sell exc beng amps is because beng is the only excellent amber type that is remotely easy to get at that quality.

Ok, that somewhat explains why most high level Matisian amps suck, but if anything, helps me make my point on rediculous pricing in general. You say it never expires, and it's relatively easy to get to. So, why is the typical price tag a few hundred thousand dappers? It's certainly not a reflection of the rarity of the focus, nor of the difficulty in waiting for weather/time/season/someone bled it dry before you got there.

If it's good, charge accordingly, if not, it's just greed IMO. I know all about the rarity of the good mats (and very much miss how it used to be before all the nerfs designed and implemented to turn us into squabbling enemies with each other instead of chasing the kitin) but, I also know many ways of bringing the stats up using various formulas, and making the best of what I've got. An exce beng amp would be something I grind with, but not sell for some outrageous random pricing that didn't reflect on my difficulty of obtaining it.

This is indeed an issue that has to be addressed. If those who can collect the mats and do the crafting won't...then what are those of us who don't craft to do. We work just as hard to get our skills up only to reach a point where it's near impossible to solo any longer and we can't get quality goods. That difference between the choice and excellent or supreme is often the difference between surviving an encounter and shouting for a rez. It would be different if more mats came from mob drops then we could just go out and kill something and hand you the mats. But in many cases we can't, we have to depend on those who dig to dig. I don't mind paying an outrageous price if it keeps me alive( i don't usually see great gear at any price), but it should be noted that no pure fighter can come anywhere near 600k an hour making money.

I'm not trying to insult, demean or flame anyone, i've met some great folks who've made me wonderful gear. But, the higher I get the farther my gear lags behind. I'd just like to know what the solution is, if not from the player community then from nexrax. Charge me alot, make me stand guard over you, tell me whose head i need to bring you...fine but "bring me the mats" can't be the only answer... I have no way to do that...

I don't like exc beng amps being sold that high myself, nor can I see the justification.

Xelir, my view is that supreme isn't for grinding. It seems based on how hard they made it (and I'm not sure you fully appreciate just how hard sup mats are to get) that it is meant for events and PvP and such. But Nevrax hasn't considered the economy. They make a very limited number of supreme mats and make them nearly impossible to acquire, all that does is make the extremely powerful players capable of using the sup stuff for grind and leave none for anyone else. But the supply is very limited, and that is going to do it for sup. If you want supreme, you have to beat out all the other people who want it somehow. Not an easy task. If you want excellent, that's more doable but is still an effort (particularly above q200). Talk to a crafter personally and they should be able to set you up. Also ask big folks to harvest good mats for you.

Part of it is probably finding the right crafter. My dagger craft is way above my other weapon crafts - if I'm using choice I can just suck up the failures until I succeed, but using excellent I'd only want to make daggers (and nothing else) at higher quality. Find the mats, then find the crafter, and most crafters will make it free when you supply the mats. Locating the mats is extremely difficult - for harvester as well as fighter. Animal mats are usually the best, and combat-oriented players are in the ideal position to find those mats. The idea of searching far and wide for named mobs in high-level areas seems tedious? Be glad you don't have to find deposits and wait for weather conditions. Try running the PR locations with a group looking for boss mobs - those can be used with all racial craft types so they're ideal. Go to sites like http://ballisticmystix.com and try to figure out what kinds of things would be best. Soon enough I'm sure the formulas will come out and then you can figure out exactly which mats you need. Check places like Ryzom Database or the Melinoe Site to find out where they are.

It isn't well-balanced though. It's very poorly balanced. And as long as that's true there will be a discrepancy. For example, I can run and get an Aen set in an hour or two, it's pretty easy. On the other hand, getting the mats for a supreme q200 armor set (which is nowhere near as good as Aen's armor) would take me days if not weeks (and probably multiple server resets).

I don't understand what Nevrax is trying to say - best I can figure is that supreme really is meant for special occasions, is meant to be used sparingly. Perhaps Aen and his ilk are meant to be taken out by guilds, and their armor is meant to be used guild-wide for special purposes and only special purposes. Whatever Nevrax is thinking in terms of economy, it's clearly naive. But that's what we're stuck with and you may have to deal with less-than-perfect weapons. According to my view, choice is normal and if you have better you're lucky. But that's because I gained most of my levels unguilded (now I have a crafter who makes me sup axes, and believe me I appreciate it - but I will probably go choice too, because he's learning how to make axes above q200 and I'd rather use an axe of my level at choice than an axe 60 levels below me at supreme).

It appears everyone is complaining about the crafters not crafting enough top items (regardless of the reasons [ they dont want to, they cant get enough great mats, whatever] ) but if this was not the case THEN it would ruin it all. If everyone has the best amps or whatever then what true value do they hold? Lets look at it this way. Why are dappers so 'worthless'? Might it be because EVERYONE has so much and can get it fairly easily? Yes. Now if everyone could do the same for amps, swords, pikes, armor, etc... then they would be worth the EXACT same. They would hold no true value. Now all amps are weak instead of some being powerful. Strength is purely relative. It is relative to the other thing. If everything is just as strong they are also just as weak.

just another way to look at it which you are all failing to see (from what i notice at least)