Neutrality

[khelbun1]

Here is an interesting thought.... what if neither side actually knows the truth of the matters behind the event? It is entirely likely that neither the Kami or the Karavan have all the facts and are simply filling in the blanks with their own paranoia. Since they are obviously opposed to each other, anytime something bad happens they are bound to blame the other for it. Every race has it's own legends of "dark forces". No matter how rational a people might be, when confronted with true fear they will most often resort to a primitive gut reaction to blame these forces.

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This event was probably intentionally left gray so that it would give the players enough of a reason to choose a side or not as they see fit. Either way it has obviously worked in pulling some of the playerbase deeper into the game which is a good thing for the game and the players. One question I have is what kind of level do you have to be to really participate in these events? My highest at this point is around 40 becuase I have been trying a number of different fields. I am just curious what level a person needs to get to before they can participate usefully in these events and not be a constant corpse in need of resurection.

Regards,
Thorasus/Kaeleron

[zzeii]

Here is an interesting thought.... what if neither side actually knows the truth of the matters behind the event? It is entirely likely that neither the Kami or the Karavan have all the facts and are simply filling in the blanks with their own paranoia. Since they are obviously opposed to each other, anytime something bad happens they are bound to blame the other for it. Every race has it's own legends of "dark forces". No matter how rational a people might be, when confronted with true fear they will most often resort to a primitive gut reaction to blame these forces.

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This event was probably intentionally left gray so that it would give the players enough of a reason to choose a side or not as they see fit. Either way it has obviously worked in pulling some of the playerbase deeper into the game which is a good thing for the game and the players..[/QUOTE]

This about sums up what I think is going on, but I also play devil's advocate, so to speak, and adding info that is being left out (whether on purpose or by lack of knowledge).

One question I have is what kind of level do you have to be to really participate in these events? My highest at this point is around 40 becuase I have been trying a number of different fields. I am just curious what level a person needs to get to before they can participate usefully in these events and not be a constant corpse in need of resurection.

Regards,
Thorasus/Kaeleron[/QUOTE]

I would probably say around lvl 100+ at least to be very useful, under that and the amount you can contribute begins to drop off rapidly. (possible a little lower if you are healing). The mob levels in Bounty beaches (and the grove of umbra I'd imagine) were around 150-200 (with some boss mobs being higher), and similair ranges in the Prime Roots (except PR mobs tend to be a bit tougher than their non-pr counterparts fyi).

[kisedd]

I don't have a clue in RL who the Kami or Karavan really are. It seems clear to me neither is as powerful as they claim. They claim to have made Altys safe for homins to return. This is clearly not true.

To the victor go the spoils. My gut feeling is that if the Karavan side won, everything would have been blamed on the Kami. We dont' know the other side because we didn't win the event. All we have is what the Kami are now saying after they won.

I do agree with other players that nothing is black and white. The Karavan obviously follow a more technology laden approach. The Kami follow a magical power. The tools of civilization are neither good nor evil, its how they are used. Maybe the truth is that instead of using us, the Kami and Karavan need us. It seems a lot of forces out there are trying to keep the hatred alive. Maybe the Kami and Karavan are both trying to do what is right.

I have to agree with zzei about protecting the home front. Having hoards of critters running all over Tyker is not a good thing. There is still that rumor floating around that Mellodi's guild was powerleveling during the event, and all the RP talk is just a cloak to cover it up.

[yy48n19]

I have to agree with zzei about protecting the home front. Having hoards of critters running all over Tyker is not a good thing. There is still that rumor floating around that Mellodi's guild was powerleveling during the event, and all the RP talk is just a cloak to cover it up.

Again, what it boils down to is that Light of Trykoth is a guild that supports the Kami. If we were to have aided the Karavan and had they "won" the event that day, it would have spoiled a lot of hard work from guildies who had been trying to get Kami fame up. So, from a purely game mechanics perspective, it would have been counterproductive for Light of Trykoth to have been involved in the event.

So, you ask, what were we doing hanging by the portal, then? Powerlevelling? Defending the entrance to Liberty Lake, as I had claimed in a previous post? Or were we just confused?

Certainly, some levels were had. I myself gained a melee level and two defensive magic levels, and I had fun doing it. Certainly, as well, there was some confusion about what exactly our role should be in the event. There was some debate in guild chat about what exactly we should do. On the one hand, several of us felt we should go to defend our homeland; and on the other hand, we all realized that we could screw up our guild vision by aiding the Karavan. As everyone knows, we ended up just inside the portal to Bounty Beach, fighting Cutes and Gibbai.

Now, I play MMO's to RP, so, after the event, I thought about what kind of motives we would have for hanging around the portal and killing Cutes and Gibbai. I thought it would contribute to the story, and I posted it. I never imagined that it would fuel such outrage.

At any rate, what seems to be the outcome of all of this is that Light of Trykoth is seen not only as a traitor to the Karavan--which is fine with us--but to fellow homins as well--at least by the Matis and Tryker who stood with the Karavan in Bounty Beach. So, we have a bit of a storyline unfolding: Traitorous LoT Guild Cannot Be Trusted.

What's disheartening about all the debate to me, though, is that it seems that the lines between what should be IC and what should be OOC are bleeding. Maybe I am just paranoid, but it seems like there are some negative feelings about LoT players because of the choice we made at the event.

At any rate, I think I've said my piece on this now, and I'd rather the whole confrontation be done with. I don't play games to be treated as suspect by my fellow players. If you can see where I am coming from in regards to RP'ing my character, that's great and thank you; if you can't, I'm not going to stand to be derided by you because you fail to understand.

Thanks.

[zzeii]

Again, what it boils down to is that Light of Trykoth is a guild that supports the Kami. If we were to have aided the Karavan and had they "won" the event that day, it would have spoiled a lot of hard work from guildies who had been trying to get Kami fame up. So, from a purely game mechanics perspective, it would have been counterproductive for Light of Trykoth to have been involved in the event.

Fame can always be undone, and it isn't a monumental task to achieve it. Just some perserverence. And you had no prior knowledge of what amount of fame impact would have been given.

So, you ask, what were we doing hanging by the portal, then? Powerlevelling? Defending the entrance to Liberty Lake, as I had claimed in a previous post? Or were we just confused?

Certainly, some levels were had. I myself gained a melee level and two defensive magic levels, and I had fun doing it. Certainly, as well, there was some confusion about what exactly our role should be in the event. There was some debate in guild chat about what exactly we should do. On the one hand, several of us felt we should go to defend our homeland; and on the other hand, we all realized that we could screw up our guild vision by aiding the Karavan. As everyone knows, we ended up just inside the portal to Bounty Beach, fighting Cutes and Gibbai.

Unfortunately you can not pause a persistant real-time world to make decisions when the time calls for action. Therefore your actions that were decided upon is what is reflecting on your guild.

Now, I play MMO's to RP, so, after the event, I thought about what kind of motives we would have for hanging around the portal and killing Cutes and Gibbai. I thought it would contribute to the story, and I posted it. I never imagined that it would fuel such outrage.

At any rate, what seems to be the outcome of all of this is that Light of Trykoth is seen not only as a traitor to the Karavan--which is fine with us--but to fellow homins as well--at least by the Matis and Tryker who stood with the Karavan in Bounty Beach. So, we have a bit of a storyline unfolding: Traitorous LoT Guild Cannot Be Trusted.

What's disheartening about all the debate to me, though, is that it seems that the lines between what should be IC and what should be OOC are bleeding. Maybe I am just paranoid, but it seems like there are some negative feelings about LoT players because of the choice we made at the event.

At any rate, I think I've said my piece on this now, and I'd rather the whole confrontation be done with. I don't play games to be treated as suspect by my fellow players. If you can see where I am coming from in regards to RP'ing my character, that's great and thank you; if you can't, I'm not going to stand to be derided by you because you fail to understand.

Thanks.

You want to RP, people all rp by different rules. This being an MMO with a set of forums and mail systems and world spanning chats, it further complicates the rules. Taking the time to come up with a 'motive for hanging around the portal' just shows you are trying to tailor a story in your own world, not Ryzom. People are going to look and see what you did, and make their judgements on that, irregardless of what you say here in the forums. So goes the saying 'Actions speak louder than words'.

You and your guild made a choice at the event, and people didn't like it. That is on you, not on them. You can't make nice, you can't just say it's 'rp' you can't claim people are 'bleeding the lines of IC and OOC'. You made your bed, now it is time for you to lay in it. You don't like it? Then do something about it, or just give up and quit. Plain and simple.

[tinpony]

Thank you kisedd, you have perfectly highlighted the point I was trying to make. Most people chosing neutrality do so believing that others will actually view them as neutrals. While there are some that do, the reality is that most don't. Most take a stark with me or against me view of things and under such a view, neutrals do not get the benefit of the doubt.

Not intended to flame anyone, this is a serious question...

How do the various members of the various guilds view people within their own ranks who adopt a neutral stance? I know from the raid at least one member of one of the participating guilds spent the entire raid harvesting in the Roots because they simply do not 'do' fame or fame related missions (for whatever reason).

Since I am not in a guild, I have no insight into guild mechanics on this. How do guilds deal with neutral members? What role will those members play as the guilds take on more and more aligned missions? Certainly rebuilding a destroyed outpost may be seen as a 'neutral' mission, but what happens if the guild invades an outpost? How about if they have to defend? What about guild fame and alliances versus a neutral alliance? How can a kami or karavan allied guild support neutral members and can neutral members really belong to an allied guild?

I took a stand and got my rewards in terms of fame and the title and being labelled 'kill on sight' (which I have the DP to verify) by tribes that I was previously fine with. A guild does the same. Indivdual members of that guild who chose to harvest in the roots and provide their guild with weapons, mats, armours, amps and the like get to claim 'neutrality' despite their contributions to the guild's cause. Is there not a divergence of interests there?

Tin.

[kisedd]

Not intended to flame anyone, this is a serious question...

How do the various members of the various guilds view people within their own ranks who adopt a neutral stance? I know from the raid at least one member of one of the participating guilds spent the entire raid harvesting in the Roots because they simply do not 'do' fame or fame related missions (for whatever reason).

Since I am not in a guild, I have no insight into guild mechanics on this. How do guilds deal with neutral members? What role will those members play as the guilds take on more and more aligned missions? Certainly rebuilding a destroyed outpost may be seen as a 'neutral' mission, but what happens if the guild invades an outpost? How about if they have to defend? What about guild fame and alliances versus a neutral alliance? How can a kami or karavan allied guild support neutral members and can neutral members really belong to an allied guild?

I took a stand and got my rewards in terms of fame and the title and being labelled 'kill on sight' (which I have the DP to verify) by tribes that I was previously fine with. A guild does the same. Indivdual members of that guild who chose to harvest in the roots and provide their guild with weapons, mats, armours, amps and the like get to claim 'neutrality' despite their contributions to the guild's cause. Is there not a divergence of interests there?

Tin.

When the event started I had no idea what the rewards would be and I didn't care. I went to see what was going on, to defned my homeland etc. I quickly realized that the cutites and gibbai were way over my head. My impact on the battle was about nil. It was more for the RL experience that I went to the fight. My character gained very little experience or anything else tangible out of the event.

Players that are of low level who harvest or hunt or do whatever during that event probably were doing more good to themselves than attending the event. I'm not sure neutral is the word, they are more like civilians aiding the cause in other ways. Building new equipment is still servering the cause.

Over the long run a player probably can't remain truly neutral in a strongly aligned guild. Over time, the guild will force a players fame one way or another. Of course it really will depend on how fame is really treated in the game, to know if a player can hold an identity that is truely vastly different from a strong guild afilliation.

[tinpony]

Players that are of low level who harvest or hunt or do whatever during that event probably were doing more good to themselves than attending the event. I'm not sure neutral is the word, they are more like civilians aiding the cause in other ways. Building new equipment is still servering the cause.

Over the long run a player probably can't remain truly neutral in a strongly aligned guild. Over time, the guild will force a players fame one way or another. Of course it really will depend on how fame is really treated in the game, to know if a player can hold an identity that is truely vastly different from a strong guild afilliation.

I guess it all plays a part in the 'perception' of the people. Are these folks pacifists, assisting through manufacture and supply or are they profiteers, looking to gain money from both sides in the conflict? Do they really feel that neither side is 'right' or are they opportunists waiting for the best side to follow?

Most of the guilds I know seem aligned one way or the other. Difficult to tell. Of the guilds listed on the board, only one group actually states that they are aiming for neutrality. Some others omit kami/karavan allegiance, but I'm not sure if that's a simple ommission or a sign of neutrality. Looking at the Warcry guild list, most guilds seem to tend toward neutrality, but again, I don't know if that's a true reflection or just the fact that none of the guild options take kami/karavan alignment into account.

What about multi-race guilds? How do they handle fame issues?

Tin.

[lyrah68]

Having never actually SEEN goo, I have to ask...does it look anything like the mining/foraging explosions that we see in other regions? And if it does....what would this mean to us? I know if goo and explosions are made of the same stuff...then it COULD be kami, or karavan...but I doubt it. I would be more inclined to think that goo is something DEEP in the planet that kills, and on a LIVING planet...that is bad...very bad.

Also, does anyone know where the Karavan came from? Plus...since they ALL have on FULL body coverings, even in the desert heat...we honestly can NOT say that ANY of us has EVER seen what is under that suit. Could it be a Matisian? Could it be a traitorous Zorai? Could it be a Mutated Tryker, genetically manipulated to be taller? Could it be a Fyrosian manipulated to be thinner and less muscular? Since NONE has unmasked a Karavan member...none can say with ANY authority any answer to ANY of those questions.

With a mask and suit...you can hide anything, they COULD be just like the roamming Homin tribes of MIXED race, or...they could be Offlanders/off worlders. Again, with that mask on...we honestly do NOT know either way.

But I sure am itching to find out!

[yy48n19]

You want to RP, people all rp by different rules. This being an MMO with a set of forums and mail systems and world spanning chats, it further complicates the rules. Taking the time to come up with a 'motive for hanging around the portal' just shows you are trying to tailor a story in your own world, not Ryzom.

True enough, I suppose. You and I obviously play this game differently and get enjoyment out of different aspects of it. I like telling stories about my character and the events that she was involved in, and fleshing them out. You don't put much value on that, and so we disagree. I do wish that you would be more respectful, though, rather than making statements like:

You can't make nice, you can't just say it's 'rp' you can't claim people are 'bleeding the lines of IC and OOC'. You made your bed, now it is time for you to lay in it. You don't like it? Then do something about it, or just give up and quit. Plain and simple.

I don't have a problem with my character being labeled a traitor, and I don't think that anything that I have posted so far suggests that I do; but I do take issue when people make ugly statements towards me.

Why all the hostility?