Ryzom post on Massive. com

[kalindra]

The crafting system as it is attracts the crafters that are tired of the dumbed-down or meaningless systems that are everywhere out there. As I said, everyone can gather random ingredients and get a pair of boots, but it takes time to figure out the system in order to get the "uber kickass boots". Some will figure out at lower levels. Some won't figure it out even after grinding up to 250. I wouldn't make the system easier for those who aren't meant to be dedicated crafters in the first place. (And crafting DOES require dedication.) Yes that sounds elitist : grinding doesn't make anyone a master. Competence makes mastery valid. Someone who's here strictly to "pew pew" won't be attracted by the crafting system anyway, simple or complex.

The fun part of the crafting system is not makin 200 zillion pendants... it's to find a way to make THE jewel set with THE resists you want. And you can get those resists easier on a lower q level craft than on a q250 one because of the wider variety of mats available.

Of course, all that information isn't available to the common of newbies, unless they are very curious and seek the information themselves. Even 4 years old multimasters can learn new recipes... why should newbies know everything from the very beginnings ? On Atys, you never stop learning.

[fiach]

I would be inclined to go with Valda on this, .

I wish everyone would take this attitude, it would make my life so much more simple

Guys I'm not knocking the way crafting is here, I am saying that a new player coming from any current MMO's will be stymied by the intricicies of crafting here and most will not stay to get to know more about it.

I'm glad to see you guys enjoying it so much, I would also like to see Ryzom actually make money, which can only be done with an influx of new players, this game is being ignored by people in their droves! They come, then they leave, why?

Its a beautiful world, its graphics are awesome, the mobs are awesome, the peope are awesome, the spells are awesome, no other game can best Ryzom on these counts, it has tons of PvP availabe that can be entered or ignored at will, but people come, play and then go.

Im just putting forth ideas on what might make them stay.

Saleema is a case in point, her few posts here have been very insightful on her part and quite instructive to SW, on why people may not be staying.

[zhaxor]

I would say the lack of an economy is the main problem here, if there was a viable economy, then people that dont want to craft, could earn money to buy equipment in other ways, and if there was stuff for crafters to buy, it would maybe give them an incentive to craft more and sell through the NPC vendors.
.

There is no incentive to craft for the community except for the reward of feeling useful to other players, the economy is to simple to support the suggestion here I am afraid.

Consider this, how do you reward a top level crafter? With Dappers? People who have reached top level routinely have millions of dappers, so do we reduce the amount of dappers crafters and diggers get for selling their gear to the NPC's? But then how do newcomers earn money to buy the crafted goods in the first place.

The economy can in no way ever be as complex as the real world, and if it was it would be so complex that the very complexity would turn away newcomers. Yet without having a complex economy the sort of market economy you envisage won't work.

I am crafting and placing LA in Fair Haven regularly, and almost every day I sell a full set of light armour in the 40-60 q range, anything higher than that doesn't sell because by that stage most players are guilded up and get their gear from the guild. Same with weapons, amps, jewels etc. But to do that it means wasting mats that I have dug, usually 130Q or higher, for no increase in craft lvl, and no monetary reward worth having. In fact if a newcomer asks me I pull my gear from the vendor and give ti to them, the 5000-6000 dappers I get from selling it I get from one pair of HA Boots 90Q sold to an NPC.

Trying to create an economy to support the player base can very easily lead to a complex and obscure system imopossible to learn. Almost every MMO I have played has a simple economy driven by the sale of gear to the NPC's, some of them have rediculously simple crafting systems, I really enjoy the crafting in Ryzom, the digging also, but that's not to everybodys taste of course, they will need to look elsewhere in the game for satisfaction.

[zhaxor]

I just posted these threads to give feedback to the developers, as to why new players are not staying. Although ironically I am still playing

Yeah I read all that and would have loved the opportunity to reply, but sadly I am restricted to the newbie land board

That's one of the reasons I actually started putting lower lvl stuff up for sale through the vendors, and there is indeed a demand for lower lvl armour, weapons and jewels, but the rewards are just to small to encourage crafters to place lower lvl stuff once they become highly skilled, although I will continue to do so as long as I can. It does mean I waste a lot of 130q mats on less than 70q armour (that seems about the cut off point for purchasers new to ML, after thay they must all be guilded up)

The rewards for crafting need to be re-thought, at the moment its just mainly money and the ego trip of being a master, sad but true.

[acridiel]

I think its sad to see that the "revard" of knowing you helped new players isn´t enough for some(most?) people. But allright, in this "personal reward is all that counts" society today it may even be understandable.

So, what may be done to make crafting more attractive to new players?

As far as I can see the biggest problem is understanding the system.
That´s one of the problems that already has been discussed a million times and I think the best solution people came up with and Spiderweb would be wise to listen to is summed up in three easy words:

"Explain, Explain, Explain!"

The Tutorial texts on Silan are large already, yes, but admittedly they seem to talk a bit too much Focus the crafting explanation more on the fact that recipes are to be found yourself, not gathered from mobs. Tell the Newcomers that crafting does in fact involve thinking with their own minds.
Instead of hoping that this yubo would conveniently carry the recipe for crafting boots from its own hide. Rephrase the explanation.

Edit: Oh, AND the explanations NEED to be re-readable! There´s simply too much stuff to keep in mind, crowding in on the unsuspecting Newbe, to remember all that was said by a Teacher upon first meeting him.

Admittedly crafting and figuring out recipes did never really catch my mind. I´m simply not that kind of person, I´m not a "number cruncher", so I´ve yet to get any higher than 110 in Amps in any craft, but as such I see the problem here with an untrained eye. (Still a N00B after 5 years of play, Yeay! STFU B00N LTCraft!)

The system as it is now is for the "number crunchers" those people who really love "playing with numbers and stats" and its great that in a world/game as Ryzom there IS a niche for these guys.
But people like me, who hate Sudoku and can´t get the hang of "abstract mathematics", or even some "real" ones, it certainly IS a bit much

As I said, I still feel like a Newbe when it comes to crafting, so here are my collected two cents to get it at least a bit easier, not dumped down, mind you!

Some folks suggested a way to "remember" the recipes, apart from creating your own chart and noting every change that occurred on screen with every single item changed in a recipe... whoa. I can see that only few people will find that attractive. True Masters admittedly, even more if they´re able to remember it all without a chart. Whoa!

So, seriously, how about a way to store, or clipboard, your own recipes?
I don´t think this would automatically dumb down the system, it would but prevent people like me from making the same mistakes over and over again when trying to figure out a nice recipe for anything. Something like,
when a certain % success rate occurs the recipe is automatically stored in "your personal amber cube/chest of knowledge" (InGame Memory )

If this would occur in a way that only the game could read it, maybe storing a "screenshot" of the materials at the front and whatever settings are needed for it to work in the backbone of the game, it would be fine and no-one would hopefully be able to exploit this system. (apart from some bad@$$ hacker, that is XD)
These recipes should not be "share-able" or trade-able, only by real explanation should a master be able to give them to an apprentice. By talking to him and maybe even showing him the correct mats. The succession of knowledge should still be in the hands of us players!

I think this would help a great deal, making at least remembering recipes a lot easier. And it wouldn´t spoil or dump down anything.
Of course it would still mean a lot of try and error on the part of people like me, but it would make the whole experience a lot less frustrating.
Apart form that its again summed up in three easy to remember words:

"Practice, practice, practice!"



CU
Acridiel

[zhaxor]

I think its sad to see that the "revard" of knowing you helped new players isn´t enough for some(most?) people. But allright, in this "personal reward is all that counts" society today it may even be understandable.

I think that is the situation to some extent, however its also simple thoughtlessness in some part. I suspect most master crafters simply don't think, for instance, of crafting 40q amps for beginners to use and putting them on the market. people who craft 40q amps and put them on the market are usually crafters who are only just starting out crafting, so the low lvl stuff available is just, well seriously, nothing but practice junk begining crafters are dumping, and there's lots of it to. This stuff just clutters up the vendors and makes it hard to actually find the decent stuff, but when it is there it sells quickly.

For instance I had the good fortune once to be given a small stack of Supreme Mektoub Eyes of 70Q, made a few lovely Supreme amps of 70Q, they were snapped up! But how many Master Crafters, coming across a stack of Supreme eyes of that low quality would even think to make amps to put on the market. Basically the stuff of that lvl is usually made by crafters of that lvl., and they simply don't have access to the good stuff to make decent amps and things like that.

Now I do like your suggestions about recipes, I would also like to see a seperation between junk and and good stuff of similar Q lvls so it wasn't all mixed together. I would like to see also shops where a crafter could place his good gear up for sale and not worry about it vanishing after 6 days, and when I say shops I really mean proper shops, for instance "Zhaxor's Emporium of Quality Amps" where I could put up my best amps for sale and where poeple who know my gear could come and purchase it (note I am not a master crafter , that was just an example). So a crafter could purchase a shop like we purchase apartments, with his hard earned millions of dappers and sell his best stuff there, it could have an area where he could train people, like apprentices etc, maybe he could even sell other peoples gear on commission, people who didn't want to own a shop but still made good gear.

And yes I do enjoy the crafting as you can tell, I am probably one of those you mentioned who would spend hours fiddling to get the best recipes and write it all down in charts I LIKE the compexity of the crafting, and the fact that a good crafter can really be outstanding. Its hard to be outstading when anybody can spend a few weeks gridning and make exactly the same quality stuff you can, that's the annoying thing about many other MMO crafting systems, to become a Master its just, grind, grind, grind. Here, yes you can earn the title of master by geting your lvl250, but everyone knows that there are true masters around who have spent years studying recipes and learning how to make the very BESt stuff. There should be somemthng to differntiate THEM from the lvl250 grinders, something that we can aspire to and that we know won't be diluted by hundreds of newbie players grinding their way up the lvls.