Dapper Sink / Boredom Reducer

[jared96]

Here's an idea that popped up after answering a post in another thread.

-Is digging for no XP so you can level up ya 6th craft skills in HA or Jools the most dreary thing ya can think of regarding ya Ryzom experience ?

-Are you carrying around half a gazillion dappers and the only thing yu spend it on is giving Silanese graduates 10 million dappers on arrival ?

How about NPC's with sales limits ? I will use heavy armor as an example

1. You get any HA skill up to 151. The Raw Mat vendor will now sell you level 150 HA mats. You get to 201, he'll now sell you QL 200 mats; 250, now ya can buy 250 mats.
2. To prevent cheating, system will still check that you have the appropriate HA title to use those mats. In other words, a guildie couldn't give me 10k mats to use as system would still check that I had earned the title.

This HA benefit would not cross over into MA or LA.....2H weaps would not cross over into 1H weaps. Still gotta earn ya first one "in a set" the old fashion way. Basically, except for jools, you can only buy mats for skills that start at level 101 and higher after you reached 151 in that grouping

Get one LA to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for LA.
Get one MA to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for MA.
Get one HA to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for HA.
Get one Shields to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for LA.

Get one 2H Weapon to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for 2H weapons.
Get one 2H Weapon to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for 2H weapons.

Get one Jewel to 151, can buy QL 150 mats that can only be used for Jewels.

Well yu get the idea.

Of course same holds at 200 and 250.

Frankly my 1st thought was that you had to be a master to buy these npc mats. Tho that does give a great disadvantage to armorers and Joolers as if ya can make an axe, you are useful. If ya can make a 250 helmet or a Diadem, you pretty much worthless until you can make the other 6 pieces.

[iphdrunk]

Sharing a few thoughts about the subject. I am not against the idea, just raising a few issues that could appear. The idea of NPCs selling mats has been a subject of much debate for long. Actually, it was like this before release, but a few drawbacks popped back then:

- it was considered that it did not favor interaction between professions. It favored crafters to stay in their corner (as if we weren't anyway )

- major bugs around release, when there was a positive feedback loop (e.g. selling the crafted item for profit, more than the cost of mats - beta testers learnt fast to craft ammo ). Result: master crafters would be there in a few days. Luckily this was fixed by then, iirc.

- I think ryzom designers overestimated (of course....) the number of players and assumed that with a high population there would be a lot more supply of mats and more flows.

- the genmats (brown potatoes) were universal mats. With less hassle for crafters, foragers and hunters were disadvantaged. Also, as a sidenote, genmats made inventory management easier and it was trivial to automate / bot crafting. Crafting bots appeared in early beta, including the availability to sell *and* buy mats. This also justified weirrd design things like mats "diseappearing" randomly from craft boxes...

- they did act as dapper sinks, but if the money was there, the rate of levelling was too fast. Guess what would happen now: e.g. I unsubbed several months ago and gave away / destroyed a lot of my wealth, but it is common for crafters to have +300M dappers. That could be used to powerlevel fast. Or a guild that decides to powerlevel a player. One of the main ideas in a MMRPG is that all-factors-considered, the rate of levelling of a given XP branch cannot be faster than a given upper bound.

- Difficult to price them correctly. Too cheap and foragers and hunters are SOL. Too expensive and they are useless, unless for very specific cases. A bit more expensive than common loot and crafters may use them instead of regular loot. At the end, it could happen that NPC mats would be used for leveling and only supreme dug / looted mats used for actual gear.

Such an addition requires *hours* of thinking about direct and indirect implications:

- For starters, your suggestion of enabling the mats for high level crafters is not good, imho. For a high level crafter, crafting a q200 light armor takes a few clicks. The time is spent in gathering the mats. Compare this to a lower level crafter who may spend 2 hours overcrafting and trying to get it. If the high level crafter has direct access to genmats, the situation is even worse. Low level crafters are already impaired by high level ones, so this could make things worse.

- Second, the relative (to say something) scarcity of armilo boosted light and jewel sets are due to the difficulty of gathering, e.g. 6k mats, which are quite looked after and require an effort to actually *dig* the mats. Being able to buy them for a few millions with a "almost sure" probability of getting the boosted set is not a good idea.

- We don't know the implications at long term. Once crafts are mastered, a "good enough" armor could be crafted in under 2 minutes, buying the mats. Crafters could get richer faster than they are now, if this operation was done at a profit.

[blaah]

items crafted using these "wondermats" would easily (hehe) made non-trade and non-sell, so only for "buy next craft level"... tho, they may as well make a npc to towns where you throw few millions and he/she "rewards" you for few craft levels. easyer and less chances for devs to mess up.

[pavmelas]

Like you said crafters have millions of dappers. Why they should have million of dappers AND easy access to mats ?

[jared96]

Gee Anissa, you making me recall "Gloin" thoughts again. For those "coming in late" Gloin was my pre-beta / beta / FBT / beta toon that got eaten by the database and could never be created again.

-yes I remember the intercation discussion but know that we are here, is there a group of foragers feeding a bunch of crafters ? No, we have everyone either digging there own grind mats or using grind mats obtained from dig slaves as "currency".

- yes, reporting the "get rich via ammo crafting" bug was one that stretched the limits of my conscience . But that doesn't exist today. At 250 I was getting about 19k for my 11 mat bucklers or about 1780 per mat used. Level 100 mats cost more than that.....I imagine 5-8k per mat would work.

- I don't think population matters. Right now, do we need more than one HA crafter, 1 axe crafter....Ok assume factions won't help each other ..... so 2 of each.....yet we have way more than that. If there was more population, yes there would be more diggers but there'd also be more crafters.

- "Wondermat", as we called it back then, isn't on the table.

- Yes it is not that unusual to have 200+ million dappers....by that point, you're bored outta ya head with crafting from all the digging involved. But what would be the point of powerleveling crafting ? So you can craft yaself what 20 other people can craft ?

They still gotta earn that 1st master unaided. It's not gonna helpo you get that HA Master title.....it's gonna help you bring up the other 5 trees. Now you are on the same level as the axe crafter who has a useful product to sell after just 250 levels. The HA crafter needs 1,000....the jooler 1250. Leveling [to a title] will not go too fast cause it doesn't change at all how long it takes yoiu to get the title....only once you have the title, can you buy mats below that title you just got.

Too cheap and foragers and hunters are SOL

There are foragers ? There is no buyers market for mats. If you are concentrating on grinding a craft, it's lucky to grab maybe 2% of ya mats this way.

If there were mats on vendors at a reasonable price, I'd be buying them left and right. Right now, the only mats I can find in any quantity are there just there for storage at 999999% markups. While doing the final 50 levels of the HA run I would visit MinCho and Dyron every day (twice) ...typical take when some could be found was between 20 mats and 60....many time less than a dozen. And this on days where I was digging 3 packer fulls plus my bag (3k mats) so what was on vendors was up to a max of 2% of what I was digging. I came to watch faction chat closely for any reports of jabs or kincher hunts hoping that afterwards I might grab 40 or 50 mats.

At the end, it could happen that NPC mats would be used for leveling

In other words, exactly what we do now from 0-100. But as with 0-100, no one could afford leveling up to 250 in craft without 1st getting to 250 in forage.

and only supreme dug / looted mats used for actual gear.

In other words, what we have now.

Such an addition requires *hours* of thinking about direct and indirect implications

And this is a good way to start the process. However once you think a bit more, the impacts are not what one might fear. There are several other ways that have been suggested. How about hiring NPC Foragers whose ability is limited by the buyers ? The NPC would say dig 500 mats an hour at a cost of say 25 dapper per level per mat. A 250 mat would therefore be 6,250 dapper. To get a 200 QL mat, either way, you'd have to already be 201 in forage and 201 in the craft you trying to buy mats for.

You say it's not uncommon for pepes to have amassed 300 million fortunes. Well lets then say that it is common for crafters to have 100-200 million....or for the sake of argument, let's say 150 million for an "accomplsihed player" who has spent a good amount of time on it. I know some who are broke (1 or 2 maters) and with 7 craft masters and an 8th close, I have 20 million.

So let's do the math, either way - with NPC vendors or dig slaves, assuming I have mastered Helmets and just am too sick of digging to bring my other 5 trees from 249 to 250.

After mastering helmets or diadems, it would cost a player 25 dapper x QL 250 x 858 mats (my last armor level) x 5 remaining skill trees = 25.7 million dappers. That's 1/6th of our 'accomplsihed players" entire fortune.....for just 1 level !

Taking it further, our "accomplished player" that we defined above would have the distinct advantage of not having to dig his mats from Level 244.5 to 250 before he was flat broke.

I don't really see a HUGE downside implication here. What I do see is the dapper meaning something again. No more auctions for dig slaves as the auctioner can buy the mats and the buyer is free to get them via foraging or ay other means he chooses. I see a market being created for foragers who now have market price to target. I see crafters now going and looking for player offered mats as right now they don't bother as it's not worth the cost of the two TP's to o check.

Compare this to a lower level crafter who may spend 2 hours overcrafting and trying to get it.

I dont see how this is affected. I want a set of 200 HA. I can bring 216 mats to a master crafter or I can bring 4,320 mats to a level 150 crafter. I think most peeps gonna go with the 1st option.

If the high level crafter has direct access to genmats, the situation is even worse. Low level crafters are already impaired by high level ones, so this could make things worse.

Again, genmats not on the table.

Second, the relative (to say something) scarcity of armilo boosted light and jewel sets are due to the difficulty of gathering, e.g. 6k mats, which are quite looked after and require an effort to actually *dig* the mats. Being able to buy them for a few millions with a "almost sure" probability of getting the boosted set is not a good idea.

First....is anyone actually walking around with a jool set made from basic mats ? Well don't think anyone gonna rtaise their hand here as that would be a "nuke me" invitation at next OP battle. Second, if ya worried about that answer is simple, disable boost for npc purchased mats.

We don't know the implications at long term.

But if that's a valid reason, then we can't have any changes in game .... ever.

Once crafts are mastered, a "good enough" armor could be crafted in under 2 minutes, buying the mats. Crafters could get richer faster than they are now, if this operation was done at a profit.

I don't think this has any basis in the reality that is Atys. How many 250 melee peeps running around in Basic HA ? How many peeps actually "bought" a set of HA using dappers since they left Silan ? When leveling melee, every set of HA I owned after 200 was supreme, after 100 every set was exe. I haven't owned a "basic" anything since leaving the original Fyros n00b isle. And let's not forget that the npc mats are usually the mat with the worse stats of anything available. But heck if it still worries ya, make them statless.....precraft = 0 across the board.

Can't stop without looking at the dangers of doing nothing. I have done all the melee I want to do. Hitting a mob with one pointie stick is pretty much the same as hitting it with another. I finished all magics except DA and saving the last few levels just to have 'soemthing left to do".

Digging anything more than two regions gives you the disting advantage of being able to say "I mastered x regions in dig". PR makes digging a second above ground region worthless. So why do I stay in game.....?

Well I'd stay in game and craft some more cause I like figuring out recipes.....once I get to a point that it matters. However, after digging some 500,000 mats, more than half of which for no xp, I just don't have the gumption to push myself through the dreariness that is mat collecting 40,000 mats for each craft skill. But hey, knowing that if I struggle up thru axe crafting from 20-244 or so, I will have amassed enough dapper to buy mats for my last 5.5 levels at least gives me a tiny bit of encouragement.

[iphdrunk]

-yes I remember the intercation discussion but know that we are here, is there a group of foragers feeding a bunch of crafters ? No, we have everyone either digging there own grind mats or using grind mats obtained from dig slaves as "currency".

Agreed. But I'm afraid I don't know whether the reason for that is a flawed economy that needs a full revamp, and still unsure whether adding the possibility of buying mats from the NPC may be a good fix to this. This may be a dapper sink, but maybe there is the risk of regular hunters (people that do not dig and craft) becoming broke faster, for, at the same price, I'll go check the NPC in my hometown rather than go checking players loot.... it can work, of course, please read on )

the digging involved. But what would be the point of powerleveling crafting ? So you can craft yaself what 20 other people can craft ?

<- Guilty as charged. Seriously I, for one, would welcome the change you propose, you don't know how many times I've done the "crafters-travel-around-the-world" (mincho, natae, dyron, avendale) looking for mats (not only "scarce ones" like seeds, or resin) to end up wasting 40k daps in tickets and having bought 4 counterweights at 16k each....

That said, we need to see the flaws before that could even be considered. I am trying to see possible reasons why that should not be done, for I see a lot why it could be. That said, I see something fishy when it reduces down to the ability of "being able to buy craft levels", which, at the root, makes me seriously think that crafting is the problem, since it is dual-sided a) the good side, with the recipees, mat exchange, etc and b) the grind. and b) could be changed completely (see below). The grind is not fun, the grind is what takes 10k mats for a few levels and the grind is what makes us dispair looking for mats.

Now you are on the same level as the axe crafter who has a useful product to sell after just 250 levels. The HA crafter needs 1,000....the jooler 1250.

I understand that. Yet the original idea was to have "shoemakers", not "light armorers". Not that original idea was realistic, since no one goes out shopping for shoes, but for whole sets.

Leveling [to a title] will not go too fast cause it doesn't change at all how long it takes yoiu to get the title....only once you have the title, can you buy mats below that title you just got.

Aye, but as things are, one branch (armor crafting) gives you fast access to 16, and another (melee weapon crafting) to around 10. Without cats, one could powerlevel, e.g. helmets in a matter of days /weeks. On top of that, consider a guild with 40+ members (hypothetically), which decides to level a heavy armorer. And that guild owns an OP. Wouldn't it be weird to have a 6-branch master crafter in e.g. 1-2 weeks? maybe it is a special / side case that we can admit as acceptable.

There are foragers ? There is no buyers market for mats. If you are concentrating on grinding a craft, it's lucky to grab maybe 2% of ya mats this way.

If there were mats on vendors at a reasonable price, I'd be buying them (....) storage at 999999% markups (...) every day (twice) (...)less than a dozen.(...) I might grab 40 or 50 mats.

Agreed. I fully understand. Been there, done that, as any high level crafter.

That said, we need to ask why a given digger is not willing to go dig 999 seeds and put them on sale for a reasonable price. Maybe the lack of interesting dapper sinks for "foragers" (suggested upteen times, sorry) so they find a reason to dig and sell. Maybe because diggers end up crafting something themselves and they become their best customers.. Implement pick crafting, justify a digger wanting a "Supreme boosted op pick of Material Extraction" as much as a fighter (the other provider of loot / grind mats) needs a sword. Enhance Light Armors so they do not only act as "bonusholders" for harvesters .

Or maybe the solution requires a full revamp. I tend to think that it could be interesting to consider another "scale" for crafting and harvesting. That crafting could use waaaaaay less mats, but crafts could take time and involve several steps (e.g. kinda you spend like 1-3 hours for a craft, but it only takes two crafts -useful crafts- to levels).. I don't know, just brainstorimng here. There may be posts that explain this way better than mself.

How about hiring NPC Foragers whose ability is limited by the buyers ? The NPC would say dig 500 mats an hour at a cost of say 25 dapper per level per mat. A 250 mat would therefore be 6,250 dapper.

This is a very interesting idea. Specially the *rate* limited part. I would not be at all (not that I am anyway) against buying the mats, as long as they are rate limited *in time*. Or, alternatively, that there are other means to get the mats rather than mass-digging (e.g. like Ep2, you could spend the honpos in wodermats). What was the key point? that at the end, you ended up spending the same amount of time, doing your preferred activity (e.g. killing) and at the end you could choose what you wanted to use your rewards on.

For example (needs better thinking), a player may buy the mats at the same rate he can e.g. dig them.... like 10 mats every 30 secs, or slighlty fsater. (just suggesting). This could be a solution to the "foraging slaves scarcity", maybe not as much to "dappersink".

I don't really see a HUGE downside implication here.

Maybe there isn't. I am playing devil's avocate here. And looking at your maths (aye did them myself too), yes, it can work.... but as things are, then the risk is on the other side... that we cannot make moneys fast enough to buy as many mats as we would want to, and that after having spent all my savings of 40M, I managed to craft a few levels but yet I am broke and without the mood to dig more. It could just be a half-solution, solving the dapper sink problem but not solving the craft-is-a-grind-and-takes-umpteen-mats problem.

First....is anyone actually walking around with a jool set made from basic mats ?

Choice, for what matters are basically as easy to get...specially for armillo boosted sets. But agreed, nothing that cannot be fixed, as suggested, by adding the "no transfer", "no drop", "no boost" or other relevant flags.

Thanks,

Ani.

[pavmelas]

And while you at it , why not a yubo slot mashine for mellee/magic user. Put coins in and yubo's come out ready at level that gives me max xp and easy kill.

[iceaxe68]

And while you at it , why not a yubo slot mashine for mellee/magic user. Put coins in and yubo's come out ready at level that gives me max xp and easy kill.

But only for OP owners.

*ducks, and runs*

[putterix]

There was a dapper sink for crafters, i dont know how many still doin it tho.

I did pay 10-15k per mat to foragers that dug mats for me, i even gave them
cats so they leveled faster and could supply me with higher quality.
I also traded amps, weapons, shields etc for dug mats.

I traded or buyed so much i didnt need to dig for weeks ´

That gave me another good thing in return, all my craftskills went higher
than my forageskills in other lands forage.
I had to sell the mats to players while lvling up those skills

[jared96]

That said, we need to ask why a given digger is not willing to go dig 999 seeds and put them on sale for a reasonable price.

Cause he obtains nothing of value for it.....he will have a bagful of dappers, as useless to the forager as it is to the crafter.

Or maybe make npc armors available at 50 miliion per piece . Then everyone be digging.