To all PvPers

Come in, pull up a chair, let's discuss all things Ryzom-related.
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kostika
Posts: 1260
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Re: To all PvPers

Post by kostika »

sprite wrote: And as for this thread stopping, only Souls or you gagging your guild will do that Kost ;)
If that's a joke, it isn't funny. Grim and Zahan aren't the whole membership of my guild and they sure aren't the only ones talking. So, sorry if you're trying to make with the funny, cause I'm not laughing.

And people not replying is another way to stop a thread. ie. letting a dead dog lie.
~Kostika
Guild Leader of The Samsara
Atys Guardian

Stand and Deliver!!
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tigrus
Posts: 1344
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:18 pm

Re: To all PvPers

Post by tigrus »

sprite wrote: And as for this thread stopping, only Souls or you gagging your guild will do that Kost ;)
Lets be mercs Spriteh..
We stop for ehm, 10 million dappers pr person, and 3 stacks of cats :P
Sun Ce, The Devil of Arispotle.
The Sexiest beast alive.
A living Legend.
Alpha and the Omega
&
King of the Universe
"So in a few moments Sun Ce had disposed of two enemies, one crushed to death and one frightened to death. Thereafter Sun Ce was called the Little Prince.!"
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grimjim
Posts: 2784
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Re: To all PvPers

Post by grimjim »

mrshad wrote:Hindsight, of course, is always 20/20; but many of us saw this comming. We knew PVP would be bad for the community, we tried to warn Nevrax. Nevrax though "WoW has PvP, and it is doing great, we should be like WoW!" Never thinking that the people who want a game like WoW are ALREADY THERE!
Here's the 20/20 hindsight then.

Mistake 1 - Patch One
---------------------
An enormous change to gameplay that, apparently, wasn't properly tested and was sprung on what was, at the time, a pretty good player population. While it was rapidly fixed the launch issues combined with that drove a TON of people away.

How it should have gone...
--------------------------
Test, test, test, gauge the community and make baby steps.


Mistake 2 - Bugger all is happening
---------------------------------
For the longest while nothing much really happened. The guides and the players did their best and between us I think we all managed to keep the game going and above water (yay, go us!) but 'things of import' were few and far between and things like different story arcs on different servers failed to materialise. As a result of this Ryzom emerged as a peaceful and cooperative game as players took the existing lore at face value, applied common sense and by and large worked together.

How it should have gone...
--------------------------
There should have been even more integral events and things where it felt like players were making a difference, even just in the politics etc. The company should have followed the direction that the game was taking from player input. Ryzom was slowly recovering and gaining a brilliant word-of-mouth reputation for roleplay and live events and player participation, a reputation that wouldn't entirely be lived up to on Nevrax's end.


Mistake 3 - Don't cross the streams!
-----------------------------------
It probably seemed like a good idea at the time but merging the US and UK server was bad ju-ju. There is a different overall dynamic to gaming, amongst other things that really started setting things off and has lead to a lot of in game and out of game conflict. Expectations are different, conduct is different, competetiveness is different (these are trends, not individuals before someone goes off on one) and this was later compounded by the timezone issues.

How it should have gone...
-------------------------
The US server should have been kept open regardless. Mixing the two just caused too many problems and mid-long term vision should have shown that. That's pretty much all there is to that.


Mistake 4 - The Temple War
---------------------------
Actually, this isn't _really_ a mistake, the heart was in the right place but the implementation was... wrong. This is how it always seemed PvP would - mostly - be played out in Ryzom. Specific events, turning points in the nature and status of the world. The Temple War did do this but it had several issues.
a) No peaceful role. (Support/behind the lines, special PvE missions, something).
b) No neutral/Trytonist role (Er... um... help the losing side).
c) Nobody really knew what the hell they were doing (instructions were very unclear for most of the event).
d) Apart from a spate of guard hunting for fame, the temples have had no real long term effect.
e) Lore wise it came out of nowhere. Peace, peace, peace, a bit of distrust between Kami and Karavan and then BLAM! Massive conflict.

How it should have gone
-----------------------
There should have been lead up events, revealing things about the temples, how they'd be constructed and why, reasons for increasing tensions between Kami and Karavan, reasons to pick a side. Something rather than just 'dropping it in'.

There should have been other ways to contribute, PvE missions escorting caravans or running supplies to the troops (to spawn consumables or something). Some role for those who hate direct player-player combat.

There should have been a proper role for neutrals. A trytonist 'temple' or village perhaps, constructed through PvE efforts to provide a lore base for Tryton similar to the temples. Just, something.


Mistake 5 - Outpost? Outhouse more like!
---------------------------------------
The outposts that were, eventually, implemented were nothing like those promised or described, had nothing to do with rebuilding or reclaiming the land and ended up a serious bone of contention as much between the PvP and PvE communities as between the Kami and Karavan. Divisive, created haves and have nots, and further shoved the game away from the successful and much more RPGlike state it was in before.

What should have happened
---------------------------
No easy solution to this one. People wanted them for ages and ages and ages, lots of people lost patience. Even so, I think we'd have been better off waiting even longer for an implementation of outposts that was actually even remotely like the promised version and included non PvP options. That may have/may be no longer on the cards though, the similarities to the cock ups in AO and the common thread between the two games has been amply noted before.

The alliance issue is one of demographics that's been gone over amply before.

Mistake 6 - Ryzom Ring
----------------------
As with outposts, this doesn't seem to have been quite ready for release though those dismissing it are failing to see the advantage it seems to have given the guides and the devs in producing content and events - beyond the bonus it gives to the players. Overall this was daring, innovative and seemed to mark a return to Ryzom's roots and values. The problem was that, like outposts, it was brought out half-arsed. To paraphrase Kryten from Red Dwarf.

"Ryzom Ring is a fantastic plan Sir with just two, minor flaws. One - It doesn't have hosting options and two, it doesn't have hosting options. Now I know, technically that's just one reason, but I felt it was such a DOOZY it was worth mentioning twice."

Ryzom Ring without hosting requires a sacrifice that all but the most dedicated RPers and mod types aren't willing to make - their game time. Allowing it to be run in the background or having the hosting options at launch was essential.

The other problems - lack of conversation treeing, low number of objects across scenarios, and so on, are minor compared to that one major problem.

How it should have gone
-----------------------
Much like outposts, it wasn't ready and now a lot of people are turned off of the concept because it's been relatively borked.


Mistake 7 - Cho-Cho Train
-------------------------
Starting up Cho was a bit optimistic, while it brought some people back and gave a fresh start and a place where new players could make an impact it diverted people from the main server - and it's community - and seems to have just exported issues from Arispotle to there, deepening problems on Arispotle and making it's own issues there. Hurrah for the drama llama.

How it should have gone
-----------------------
The US server should never have been merged and Cho shouldn't have been created (speaking in an overall good-of-the-game sense).
--
Jyudas
High Officer in the Samsara
WEALTH & GLORY!
Currently pondering R2, please hold...
We're neutral, you're just too cheap to hire us.
Remember, other people exist than yourself.
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grimjim
Posts: 2784
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:00 am

Re: To all PvPers

Post by grimjim »

sprite wrote:That is your most illogical statement yet.

Firstly, I thought you hated the C word (CONTENT). And secondly, I'd much rather they spent their time on something that takes less time and effort and appeals to more of the playerbase. Maybe thats just me and everyone else with a brain who cares that they have to pay for their account though. :rolleyes:

And as for this thread stopping, only Souls or you gagging your guild will do that Kost ;)
Note the inverted commas.
PvP is known to be a cheap substitute and it always, always, always goes wrong. So much for the promises of 'doing it right'.
I just have to think back to see the players it's driven away and the damage it's done to the game's community, but I guess that takes a little more brainpower than other things.
--
Jyudas
High Officer in the Samsara
WEALTH & GLORY!
Currently pondering R2, please hold...
We're neutral, you're just too cheap to hire us.
Remember, other people exist than yourself.
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tigrus
Posts: 1344
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:18 pm

Re: To all PvPers

Post by tigrus »

grimjim wrote:Note the inverted commas.
PvP is known to be a cheap substitute and it always, always, always goes wrong. So much for the promises of 'doing it right'.
I just have to think back to see the players it's driven away and the damage it's done to the game's community, but I guess that takes a little more brainpower than other things.
ROFL!
You are basicly describing what happened to SWG dude!
and i'd take this over that anyday! hahahaha
Sun Ce, The Devil of Arispotle.
The Sexiest beast alive.
A living Legend.
Alpha and the Omega
&
King of the Universe
"So in a few moments Sun Ce had disposed of two enemies, one crushed to death and one frightened to death. Thereafter Sun Ce was called the Little Prince.!"
mikebd20
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:28 pm

Re: To all PvPers

Post by mikebd20 »

grimjim wrote:Here's the 20/20 hindsight then.

Mistake 1 - Patch One
---------------------
An enormous change to gameplay that, apparently, wasn't properly tested and was sprung on what was, at the time, a pretty good player population. While it was rapidly fixed the launch issues combined with that drove a TON of people away.

How it should have gone...
--------------------------
Test, test, test, gauge the community and make baby steps.


Mistake 2 - Bugger all is happening
---------------------------------
For the longest while nothing much really happened. The guides and the players did their best and between us I think we all managed to keep the game going and above water (yay, go us!) but 'things of import' were few and far between and things like different story arcs on different servers failed to materialise. As a result of this Ryzom emerged as a peaceful and cooperative game as players took the existing lore at face value, applied common sense and by and large worked together.

How it should have gone...
--------------------------
There should have been even more integral events and things where it felt like players were making a difference, even just in the politics etc. The company should have followed the direction that the game was taking from player input. Ryzom was slowly recovering and gaining a brilliant word-of-mouth reputation for roleplay and live events and player participation, a reputation that wouldn't entirely be lived up to on Nevrax's end.


Mistake 3 - Don't cross the streams!
-----------------------------------
It probably seemed like a good idea at the time but merging the US and UK server was bad ju-ju. There is a different overall dynamic to gaming, amongst other things that really started setting things off and has lead to a lot of in game and out of game conflict. Expectations are different, conduct is different, competetiveness is different (these are trends, not individuals before someone goes off on one) and this was later compounded by the timezone issues.

How it should have gone...
-------------------------
The US server should have been kept open regardless. Mixing the two just caused too many problems and mid-long term vision should have shown that. That's pretty much all there is to that.


Mistake 4 - The Temple War
---------------------------
Actually, this isn't _really_ a mistake, the heart was in the right place but the implementation was... wrong. This is how it always seemed PvP would - mostly - be played out in Ryzom. Specific events, turning points in the nature and status of the world. The Temple War did do this but it had several issues.
a) No peaceful role. (Support/behind the lines, special PvE missions, something).
b) No neutral/Trytonist role (Er... um... help the losing side).
c) Nobody really knew what the hell they were doing (instructions were very unclear for most of the event).
d) Apart from a spate of guard hunting for fame, the temples have had no real long term effect.
e) Lore wise it came out of nowhere. Peace, peace, peace, a bit of distrust between Kami and Karavan and then BLAM! Massive conflict.

How it should have gone
-----------------------
There should have been lead up events, revealing things about the temples, how they'd be constructed and why, reasons for increasing tensions between Kami and Karavan, reasons to pick a side. Something rather than just 'dropping it in'.

There should have been other ways to contribute, PvE missions escorting caravans or running supplies to the troops (to spawn consumables or something). Some role for those who hate direct player-player combat.

There should have been a proper role for neutrals. A trytonist 'temple' or village perhaps, constructed through PvE efforts to provide a lore base for Tryton similar to the temples. Just, something.


Mistake 5 - Outpost? Outhouse more like!
---------------------------------------
The outposts that were, eventually, implemented were nothing like those promised or described, had nothing to do with rebuilding or reclaiming the land and ended up a serious bone of contention as much between the PvP and PvE communities as between the Kami and Karavan. Divisive, created haves and have nots, and further shoved the game away from the successful and much more RPGlike state it was in before.

What should have happened
---------------------------
No easy solution to this one. People wanted them for ages and ages and ages, lots of people lost patience. Even so, I think we'd have been better off waiting even longer for an implementation of outposts that was actually even remotely like the promised version and included non PvP options. That may have/may be no longer on the cards though, the similarities to the cock ups in AO and the common thread between the two games has been amply noted before.

The alliance issue is one of demographics that's been gone over amply before.

Mistake 6 - Ryzom Ring
----------------------
As with outposts, this doesn't seem to have been quite ready for release though those dismissing it are failing to see the advantage it seems to have given the guides and the devs in producing content and events - beyond the bonus it gives to the players. Overall this was daring, innovative and seemed to mark a return to Ryzom's roots and values. The problem was that, like outposts, it was brought out half-arsed. To paraphrase Kryten from Red Dwarf.

"Ryzom Ring is a fantastic plan Sir with just two, minor flaws. One - It doesn't have hosting options and two, it doesn't have hosting options. Now I know, technically that's just one reason, but I felt it was such a DOOZY it was worth mentioning twice."

Ryzom Ring without hosting requires a sacrifice that all but the most dedicated RPers and mod types aren't willing to make - their game time. Allowing it to be run in the background or having the hosting options at launch was essential.

The other problems - lack of conversation treeing, low number of objects across scenarios, and so on, are minor compared to that one major problem.

How it should have gone
-----------------------
Much like outposts, it wasn't ready and now a lot of people are turned off of the concept because it's been relatively borked.


Mistake 7 - Cho-Cho Train
-------------------------
Starting up Cho was a bit optimistic, while it brought some people back and gave a fresh start and a place where new players could make an impact it diverted people from the main server - and it's community - and seems to have just exported issues from Arispotle to there, deepening problems on Arispotle and making it's own issues there. Hurrah for the drama llama.

How it should have gone
-----------------------
The US server should never have been merged and Cho shouldn't have been created (speaking in an overall good-of-the-game sense).
like this?

http://b-and-the-b-literal.ytmnd.com/
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grimjim
Posts: 2784
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:00 am

Re: To all PvPers

Post by grimjim »

tigrus wrote:ROFL!
You are basicly describing what happened to SWG dude!
and i'd take this over that anyday! hahahaha
I still think Ryzom to be the best MMORPG on the market, that doesn't mean it couldn't be better or that I don't want to see it dragged down into the same mire as the other games.
--
Jyudas
High Officer in the Samsara
WEALTH & GLORY!
Currently pondering R2, please hold...
We're neutral, you're just too cheap to hire us.
Remember, other people exist than yourself.
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tigrus
Posts: 1344
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:18 pm

Re: To all PvPers

Post by tigrus »

grimjim wrote:I still think Ryzom to be the best MMORPG on the market, that doesn't mean it couldn't be better or that I don't want to see it dragged down into the same mire as the other games.
Well what you described was what they did to SWG, basicly in those steps..
So, if they do that to this game, youll love this game?
Sun Ce, The Devil of Arispotle.
The Sexiest beast alive.
A living Legend.
Alpha and the Omega
&
King of the Universe
"So in a few moments Sun Ce had disposed of two enemies, one crushed to death and one frightened to death. Thereafter Sun Ce was called the Little Prince.!"
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grimjim
Posts: 2784
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:00 am

Re: To all PvPers

Post by grimjim »

tigrus wrote:Well what you described was what they did to SWG, basicly in those steps..
So, if they do that to this game, youll love this game?
Until the point at which I no longer consider it to be the best.

I'm liking some of what seems to be going on in LOTR :O , provided they can resist the PvP dumbing down and if I can cope with it not being set after the movies (and the old ICE MERP stuff was) it may turn out to be an option.

Or if the Age of Conan PvE servers look worthwhile.

Low fantasy me likey.
--
Jyudas
High Officer in the Samsara
WEALTH & GLORY!
Currently pondering R2, please hold...
We're neutral, you're just too cheap to hire us.
Remember, other people exist than yourself.
User avatar
sprite
Posts: 3169
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:36 pm

Re: To all PvPers

Post by sprite »

grimjim wrote:Until the point at which I no longer consider it to be the best.
And finally you admit it.
"the" spriteh
SoTR
[size=-4]Read it, know it, live it
Remember kids, IOWIYAFOO![/size]
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