Vicious Cycle? - OP concern

[varelse]

Your claims are anecdotal, OP ownership is empirical.

V

I got your anecdotes right here... the history and politics of the outposts is by no means as simple as "kami vs kara". There's been infighting in both factions, shady deals, backstabbing, betrayal, horse trading, and even some level of apparent immunity. Red Ribbon Army, Evolution and Ballistic Mystix, for example, have never been challenged for control of the outposts they have held since this feature was released.

I'm not even going to pretend to know what's gone on with the kami outposts, but here's my best recollection of how things have happened with the ones currently controlled by guilds with Karavan faction alignment.

Fyros:
Malmont Farm - q200 Legion of Atys (claimed at release by the Soul, kami guild, taken in open combat by Legion of Atys, karavan guild)*

Matis:
Psykopla Knoll Trading Post - q50 Sacred Circle of Guardians (claimed at release by Reapers of the Dark, transferred peacefully several times)
Finders Farm - q100 The New Empire (claimed at release by Cara Via, transferred peacefully several times)
Wooky Workshop - q150 The New Empire (claimed at release by Citizenz of Matis, transferred peacefully several times)
Berello Gorge Border Post - q200 Cara Via (claimed at release by Pegasus Foundation, transferred peacefully to Cara Via)
Fearing Fen Farm - q200 Reapers of the Dark (claimed at release by OmegaV, transferred peacefully to RotD)
Westgrove Stronghold - q250 Order of the Nameless (claimed at release, has never changed hands)
Ginti Workshop - q250 Melinoe (Rubbarn gum, Dexterity) (claimed at release, has never changed hands)

Tryker:
Windway Workshop - q100 Atys Ghosts (Tekorn, Metabolism) (claimed at release by Atys Ghosts, transferred once to Aeden Artisans by GvG "challenge", then transferred back to Atys Ghosts)
Fount Porch Trade Post - q150 Aeden Artisans (claimed at release by Nexus, transferred peacefully to AA)
Graveyard Gate Research Centre - q200 Ballistic Mystix (Armillo lichen, Balance) (claimed at release by Evolution, transferred peacefully to Ballistic Msytix)
Loria Stronghold - q250 Evolution (claimed at release, has never been attacked or changed hands)
Whirling Strongold - q250 Nexus (claimed at release by the 6-member kami/tryker guild, Band of the Hawks, successfully attacked by Karavan guild OmegaV, then taken by the successful attack by the Nexus, also a Karavan guild)**

Zorai:
Gu-Qin Workshop - q200 Guardians of Jena (claimed at release by kami guild Twilight Whispers, transferred peacefully to Kings of Oblivion, successfully attacked by Karavan guild Guardians of Jena)*
Zo-Kian Ruins Workshop - q250 Pegasus Foundation (Cheng Root for Amps) (claimed at release by Infinity, transferred peacefully to Citizenz of Matis, attacked successfully by an alt guild on behalf of a group of kami faction players, returned to npcs by the GM's, reclaimed by Cara Via, transferred peacefully to Pegasus Foundation)*
Lost Valley Stronghold - q250 OmegaV (Greslin for picks) (claimed at release by Infinity, a Kami guild, successfully attacked by Citizenz of Matis, reclaimed by an alt guild on behalf of a group of kami faction players, released back to npc's by GM's, reclaimed from npc's by Cara Via, transferred peacefully to OmegaV)**

Notice that out of all the times ownership of any outpost on this list has been changed, only seven times was it due to successful pvp challenge (outpost attack). Control of outposts is more influenced by politics and relationships by far than it is by open combat. One of the chief reasons for this is the nature of outpost combat itself. It is turn-based, open to all participants, and favors defenders (hugely, I might add) over attackers. Another factor is the mechanics of the outpost. They do not require any form of maintenance, and thus favor entrenchment and stagnation even more. Yet another is the nature of this community itself. Many people would rather negotiate or agree to share than fight, especially when this means fighting against faction allies, trading partners, and friends. Many more people are willing to show up for a defensive effort than for an aggressive takeover attempt. Aggressors tend to be seen as bad, and have more challenge to rally support to their cause. Add to this the imbalance of challenges between the attacker and the defenders, and you have a recipe for locking guilds or alliance into territory that it becomes increasingly difficult to challenge them for...

I'm of the opinion that a little more dynamism in the outpost game mechanics, and a slight tweak to make defending them more challenging as the threshold drops, would help us regain a shifting, interesting, nonstagnant form of "balance" among the factions and the neutrals. Let's see the thresholds affect the output of the drills, or even see the mauraders start trying to take the outpost back if it's threshold drops too far... Let's see the guard options available for defense lessen in strength and power as the threshold drops... And lets have some outpost maintenance requirements, even missions where we have to keep clearing the land so that the weeds or bugs or 'rot' doesn't damage our drills...

Anything that makes the outpost more demanding to upkeep and a little less of a cakewalk to defend at lower thresholds, would probably help this alot.

[velosi]

Give us your ig name and we'll send you a tell everytime someone attacks a karavan OP And since I'll probably be too late even if you do, there's one tomorrow

Vitae.

By all means send me a tell whenever there is an attack.

There is literally nothing I like more than fighting.

V

[vguerin]

Matis:
Ginti Workshop - q250 Melinoe (Rubbarn gum, Dexterity) (claimed at release, has never changed hands)

For the record, we have been attacked twice... The defense has won both times.

[grimjim]

I just want to point out that Kami have made many many more outpost war declarations and Kami are typically the ones coming to Yrkanis looking to start a FvF tag fight.

If Karavan were more "into" PvP wouldn't they be declaring the wars and picking the fights?

Look at the numbers.
Number of declarations doesn't make the whole story and most of the kami side's attacks appear to have been counterattacks, multiple declarations or repeated attempts to retake already taken OPs.

[iwojimmy]

Look at the numbers.
Number of declarations doesn't make the whole story and most of the kami side's attacks appear to have been counterattacks, multiple declarations or repeated attempts to retake already taken OPs.

The attacks on Kami owned outposts I have participated in, have been in retaliation to attacks on KA outposts, and usually after the Kami trademark multiple false declarations, which are incredibly irritating and to me at least, qualify as 'griefing behaviour'..

So some members of the Kami community indulge in behaviour which pisses off other elements of the game community, who respond in a game sanctioned manner and punish the offenders...

Generally I agree that outposts are intended to be fought over, and the people who enjoy that style of gameplay should have it available to them, but there are people, on both sides, who persist in inflicting that gameplay on players who ARENT interested.

The vicious cycle is perpetuated, and it only takes a couple of troublemakers to keep it rolling along.

[mrshad]

Look at the numbers.
Number of declarations doesn't make the whole story and most of the kami side's attacks appear to have been counterattacks, multiple declarations or repeated attempts to retake already taken OPs.

Umm...GJ??? Why would you ask us to "look at the numbers," and then say "number of declarations doesn't make the whole story"?

I would say that number of outpost don't make the entire story. The pitiful and shameful behavior of far too many Kami loyalists is the real issue. Team Jena holds the amount of outpost that we do because we see we are fighting, not just the for right side (sides in a game are pretty arbitrary), but for the right cause.

We have tired of the griefing, the childishness, the false declarations of war, and we stand together against the behavior that team Kami seems to embody. There are good players on the Kami side. We know this because unprovoked agression from Kami aligned guilds does not garner the support of the whole faction. But all of us on team Jena must stand together to stop these attacks if we hope this sort of behavior is ever going to end.

[ajsuk]

The last two posts pretty much sum up my and alot of my friends feelings towards false declarations. Attacks or Counter attacks on guilds which cause this kind of griefing is simply a way of saying: What your doing sucks, now you pay.
There may also be other types of grief or impoliteness which contributes ofcourse.

Thats mpov anyway.

[grimjim]

Umm...GJ??? Why would you ask us to "look at the numbers," and then say "number of declarations doesn't make the whole story"?

Because number of attacks tells you precisely nothing about the size of either faction. Indeed all these failed attacks and the relative underhandedness and annoyance factor of it tells you a great deal about the relative scale of the forces.

Just as in the real world, smaller, less well equipped, less strong forces use underhanded and unconventional tactics in order to try and carry the day. Terrorism, Guerilla fighting, harrasment, psychological warfare and so on. In our case we have aggro dragging, 'neutral' healing and false declarations. While the first two happen equally on both sides the last seems to happen a lot more on the part of the Kami.

Compare the Kami defence numbers to their attack numbers and that doesn't actually tell you anything about support or lack thereof for the attacks (Since they're not well communicated in the first place). It just confirms that the Kami players are, as a whole, due to various factors less interested in PvP but will turn out in reasonable numbers for a defence, but not a 'non-essential' attack.

The Karavan can mobilise an even or overwhelming defence force without much, if any, effort. The Kami can't get a decent attack force together and it takes everything they have to get a good enough defence force together just to hold on to their remaining outposts.

I would say that number of outpost don't make the entire story. The pitiful and shameful behavior of far too many Kami loyalists is the real issue. Team Jena holds the amount of outpost that we do because we see we are fighting, not just the for right side (sides in a game are pretty arbitrary), but for the right cause.

I am talking entirely OOC. Neither side is right and, if anything, the Karavan are definately set up to be 'the bad guys' which, ironically, is part of what's lead them to being so strong since 'teh 3vil' is much more appealing to the more competetive 'badass pvper' type of acheivement oriented player.

We have tired of the griefing, the childishness, the false declarations of war, and we stand together against the behavior that team Kami seems to embody. There are good players on the Kami side. We know this because unprovoked agression from Kami aligned guilds does not garner the support of the whole faction. But all of us on team Jena must stand together to stop these attacks if we hope this sort of behavior is ever going to end.

Speaking as a neutral I think both sides often behave abominably during battles or in their tactics, particularly in antisocial timing of attacks, false declarations, smack talk in region, aggro dragging and all the other little sins, including gloating. From my PoV I'm afraid the Kara side seems to be responsible for far more social-contract infractions than the Kami side, apart from false declarations - but that may just be another side effect of the numbers issue. More people just means a higher percentage of asshats, even if proportional and the Kami haven't had much to gloat about.

*shrug*

As I said, I find the whole dynamic of it and the reasons for it fascinating.

[dakhound]

like you guys wouldnt do it anyway,

jeez sometimes you guys make me laugh. in fact I've noticed a weird little quirk, If we Dont attack you, If we stay out of your way and be generally peaceful, you get bored and attack us.

saying that I'm not agreeing with false declares despite having done it once myself out of frustration (of which I apologised).

Jayce - nice to see you adding your fine opinion to this. Coming from a person who when people do turn up does nothing smacktalk in region and do your best to put people off turning up again(along with your fine friend sittingbull). I dont think your a bad guy most of the times, just OP's seem to bring out a childish streak in you.

[xeraphim]

Mrshad...
What a load of Twaddle..
The Kami side are not en masse greifers at all.
You point of view has obvioulsly been swayed by hearsay and propaganda and you have no real concept of our faction...
Do you really think that the Kami side attracts griefers and disshonorable players???
You ability to generalise the actions of a whole faction (wrongly) and put everyone in the same box astounds me.
There have been some incredibly underhand tactics from the Karavan side but I would in no way pin this on the entire faction...
I dissagree with the KA ethos whole heartedly and they seem to be using thier current advantage to throttle the life out of the kami..
Instead of realising that balance is the key to good fun and a healthy community atmosphere they have pressed the avantage to the detriment of many players and ultimatley in the end themselves... what happens when you have finally squeezed the life out of the opposing faction?
There is no fun in the final result only in the taking part.
Jyudas is right the imbalance ingame is not only due to numbers.. of which there *is* an imbalance.
It is to do with the way kami facition characters generally play the game..
The Kami path lends itself to the Mystics (zorai) and the Honorable warriors (Fyros)
The karavan path lends itself to the empire driven (matis) and the fun loving (trykers)
As it turns out the Matis have become the most popular race by quite some distance. thus it gives us a higher number of PvP / expansionist players on one faction as well as a larger faction overall.
So slowly over time we have been losing the grip on our lands.. we recieve less crystals and OP produce to a faction that is allready thriving, we become frustrated and disillusioned by countless losses. every oupost Victory for the KA makes the Kami lose a little heart , a few players and alot of motivation.
And what do we get when we try to reclaim an OP with the odds stacked against us?
I have experienced Goading and greifing form the victors that is unecessary and unbearable to players who are fighting for the very survival of thier faction .. and at times I have been disgusted by it.
This breeeds contempt and rash decisions by players on both sides KAmi and KAravan.
and perpetuates the Vicious cycle we are speaking of..

It is time for the Kami to stand up and fight back
And I will be right there at the front of the pack.
Eventually the kami side will grow stronger and perhaps we will be have the upper hand in the power balance of atys.

But when my lands are won back and my people have what they need to prosper...
I will stop.
Happy with what I have.
Balance will be restored.
And the battles on the borders that kick off occasionally will be the greatest atys has ever seen. (if you havn't noticed balanced PvP = 10x the fun of imbalanced Pvp with 1/10t of the grief)
Then I will be happy and threads like this and the discontent that they breed can all be put to bed and we can get on with enjoying Pvp , PvE and whatever else floats your boat in this virtual world we inhabit, in peace.

Rant over

Xera out