A Possible Solution to the PvP/PvE Clash

[marct]

The primary problem seems to be non-consensual PvP, and being attacked simply because of where you are. These have led to other problems, such as denial of content to a large segment of the population, and not being able to heal certain people, even your guildmates, which offends many people's sense of reason.

Any solutions we can come up with must fulfill certain criteria;

They must work from a game-mechanics point of view, as well as make sense from an in-game perspective.

Ideally, they would show people that random acts of aggression are not good for either the target or for the perpetrator, and change a the offender from a burr in the game world, into an asset.

They must make the game enjoyable to as many people as possible, while causing as few as possible to quit, and hopefully, draw in a bigger audience.

I would have to say that some of the non-PvP group think that they are being denied something when in effect they are not. By having a zone be PvP, and you choosing not to go in due to the risk is a choice. There may be something high value there, but you must risk something to get it. The complaint is often I have no access to the PR mats, or that part of the game Well you do as there are many non-PvP PR regions, not to mention an open market to your avail for the purchase of said items. You could make your same argument around skills, and that I choose to not be a melee, but in my choice of that you are not allowing me to participate in that part of the game. In actuallity you are choosing to be a specific part of the community that is both critical and vital to the survival of a sustainable ecosystem.

I would view the folks who will risk that as people with something to gain. They can provide a service to folks who are not willing to participate in something that risky. Think of a firefighter, Police officer, or a voluntary military person (no flaming here please I am making a point). You choose not to do these things, and for some strange reason unbeknownst to you they do choose to do it. In fact they are providing a service to you that you covet.

Due to our low population, and a few people who just kill in PvP just to kill, I think many of the factors around PvP in Ryzom are blown tremendously out of proportion. Given a larger population and more people willing to risk, I believe the PvP will play out properly given what I stated above, and the fact that the majority of pro-PvPers do not intend to just kill, but do want to integrate it into their play, etc and as a result, the 'few' that kill just to kill will in effect end up being overridden by the true PvP with reasons around the gameplay.

Much that we debate and argue here are isolated incidents, bragging, boasting, etc. If the PvP would be left in game, and handled in game, you would notice that the I just want to kill folks will be integrated into the proper PvPers, or they will be in the group that leaves because it does not fit their style, and the Non-PvPers will end up quite happy.

I hope I have contributed positively.

Noin.
(For the record, I am not a killer, and I do not think it is a problem to have PvP. If I went to PR and some Kami lover was pulling Supreme whatever, I may choose to kill them to prevent them from getting that limited resource to benefit my opposing faction. I may not even have my pick on me to dig it myself, or I may start to dig it and they come back and kill me. Seems like a classic faction conflict to me. Kill you just to kill you makes a little less sense though. But that is not my character or me in real life.)

P.S. Before posting I went back and read this again, and I must say if the non-PvPers stay out of the Open PvP areas, the 'kill just to killers' have no targets of opportunity and thus will have to deal with in-game consequences of their actions from the pro-PvPers and the Pro-PvPers that are allies and friends of the non-PvPers. Some of this stuff can really be solved without the use of a game system, and the proper action of the non-PvPers would contribute to the problem solving itself using the logic I have just stated again.

[grimjim]

P.S. Before posting I went back and read this again, and I must say if the non-PvPers stay out of the Open PvP areas, the 'kill just to killers' have no targets of opportunity and thus will have to deal with in-game consequences of their actions from the pro-PvPers and the Pro-PvPers that are allies and friends of the non-PvPers. Some of this stuff can really be solved without the use of a game system, and the proper action of the non-PvPers would contribute to the problem solving itself using the logic I have just stated again.

You're not right so long as PvP areas or activities remain linked to resources or content. Please review the other PvP threads for big and informative posts regarding this issue.

[marct]

You're not right so long as PvP areas or activities remain linked to resources or content. Please review the other PvP threads for big and informative posts regarding this issue.

So to that I ask what about content that is related to FAME? I don't want to do fame missions and you are keeping me from content. I think these are pretty similar.

[sofiaoak]

So to that I ask what about content that is related to FAME? I don't want to do fame missions and you are keeping me from content. I think these are pretty similar.

Little bit, but not really.

It's not just the content, but role what player has to take. The different of consentual PvP and open PvP is that open PvP requires situation where there is possibility have victims. Question has allways been, why does some PvP people need victims? Why to they support open PvP over consentual PvP? What does open PvP offers what can't be done with consentual PvP?

So when people ask, why some people are agaist Ryzoms open zone PvP, answer is not just a denyed content, but how the PvP is done in general?

When open zone PvP is made, only way to do it right in multi kind player base is like arena. There is no other reason to go there than have open PvP. If zone or area has some other reason, they create conflicts what aren't needed. These conflicts can be avoid just making the PvP consentual, not open zone PvP.

So the answer for why is simple, it's not needed to be that ways, because it creates unneccessary problems, what can be avoid different design.

[michielb]

I would have to say that some of the non-PvP group think that they are being denied something when in effect they are not. By having a zone be PvP, and you choosing not to go in due to the risk is a choice. There may be something high value there, but you must risk something to get it. The complaint is often I have no access to the PR mats, or that part of the game Well you do as there are many non-PvP PR regions, not to mention an open market to your avail for the purchase of said items. You could make your same argument around skills, and that I choose to not be a melee, but in my choice of that you are not allowing me to participate in that part of the game. In actuallity you are choosing to be a specific part of the community that is both critical and vital to the survival of a sustainable ecosystem.

I would view the folks who will risk that as people with something to gain. They can provide a service to folks who are not willing to participate in something that risky. Think of a firefighter, Police officer, or a voluntary military person (no flaming here please I am making a point). You choose not to do these things, and for some strange reason unbeknownst to you they do choose to do it. In fact they are providing a service to you that you covet.

Due to our low population, and a few people who just kill in PvP just to kill, I think many of the factors around PvP in Ryzom are blown tremendously out of proportion. Given a larger population and more people willing to risk, I believe the PvP will play out properly given what I stated above, and the fact that the majority of pro-PvPers do not intend to just kill, but do want to integrate it into their play, etc and as a result, the 'few' that kill just to kill will in effect end up being overridden by the true PvP with reasons around the gameplay.

Much that we debate and argue here are isolated incidents, bragging, boasting, etc. If the PvP would be left in game, and handled in game, you would notice that the I just want to kill folks will be integrated into the proper PvPers, or they will be in the group that leaves because it does not fit their style, and the Non-PvPers will end up quite happy.

I hope I have contributed positively.

Noin.
(For the record, I am not a killer, and I do not think it is a problem to have PvP. If I went to PR and some Kami lover was pulling Supreme whatever, I may choose to kill them to prevent them from getting that limited resource to benefit my opposing faction. I may not even have my pick on me to dig it myself, or I may start to dig it and they come back and kill me. Seems like a classic faction conflict to me. Kill you just to kill you makes a little less sense though. But that is not my character or me in real life.)

P.S. Before posting I went back and read this again, and I must say if the non-PvPers stay out of the Open PvP areas, the 'kill just to killers' have no targets of opportunity and thus will have to deal with in-game consequences of their actions from the pro-PvPers and the Pro-PvPers that are allies and friends of the non-PvPers. Some of this stuff can really be solved without the use of a game system, and the proper action of the non-PvPers would contribute to the problem solving itself using the logic I have just stated again.

My primary objection to PvP, any kind of PvP, can be destilled from this (and similar threads) The bad...

p.s. in case you don't know what to look for... please note that the thread has been close by a moderator. Also note that several posts have been edited by a moderator...PvP tends to promote this kind of behavior both in game and on the forums.

PvP attracts a certain type of player that would best be kept in restraints and in isolation from "civilised society" both for their own wellbeing and that of the people who's life they might otherwise adversly affect.

So to be absolutly clear on the subject: It is not about game play
It is not about game mecanics
It is not about Lore
It's about people behaving badly....

p.s. I do not say that all PvPer behave badly nor do I mean to imply that you are one of them.

[michielb]

Gah now I did it again
Went n got myself involved in something I don't want to be involved in


Ignore me I know not what I do....

[marct]

My primary objection to PvP, any kind of PvP, can be destilled from this (and similar threads) The bad...

p.s. in case you don't know what to look for... please note that the thread has been close by a moderator. Also note that several posts have been edited by a moderator...PvP tends to promote this kind of behavior both in game and on the forums.

PvP attracts a certain type of player that would best be kept in restraints and in isolation from "civilised society" both for their own wellbeing and that of the people who's life they might otherwise adversly affect.

So to be absolutly clear on the subject: It is not about game play
It is not about game mecanics
It is not about Lore
It's about people behaving badly....

p.s. I do not say that all PvPer behave badly nor do I mean to imply that you are one of them.

We agree completely... Read my post again.

However, if the people that do not want to get involved at all do not go to the zone PvP areas, much of this stops. We are commenting on the minority, the people who 'gank' and boast. Most of the adamant pro-PvPers that you come up against in your posting are some adamant about it because it is a critical part of the basis of the game. Kami v. Karavan, Trykers enslaved by Matis, Dumb Fyros who brouhgt about the great Kitin invasion, etc.

The people that want it have the right reasons, and do not act in the "bad" way that you stated. The people that are anti-PvP because of the ignorant few, want a way to control the ignorant few, and that will never happen unless you completely remove it. The pro-PvP for the right reasons group will not let you eliminate the conflict from the story line, so I say go back and read my post again. I think then you see we agree, I just think the boasting and ganking crew dwindle down ifdealt with in the right way.

Noin.

[thebax]

We agree completely... Read my post again.

However, if the people that do not want to get involved at all do not go to the zone PvP areas, much of this stops. We are commenting on the minority, the people who 'gank' and boast. Most of the adamant pro-PvPers that you come up against in your posting are some adamant about it because it is a critical part of the basis of the game. Kami v. Karavan, Trykers enslaved by Matis, Dumb Fyros who brouhgt about the great Kitin invasion, etc.

The people that want it have the right reasons, and do not act in the "bad" way that you stated. The people that are anti-PvP because of the ignorant few, want a way to control the ignorant few, and that will never happen unless you completely remove it. The pro-PvP for the right reasons group will not let you eliminate the conflict from the story line, so I say go back and read my post again. I think then you see we agree, I just think the boasting and ganking crew dwindle down ifdealt with in the right way.

Noin.

Indeed.

And if people of a darker skin-hue just used the water-fountain clearly marked "Coloured", just think of all the trouble they would have avoided. I mean, it still provided water, what was the problem?

Our current problem with non-consentual PvP areas is a matter of degree, but not type.

This is merely another example of unnecessary trouble brought by PvP. We don't need it, most don't want it, but there should be a way to accomodate the mal-adjusted people who crave it, without impacting those who do not, thus doing what this whole mess is about, increasing the size of the player-base.

We have seen (or at least some have) what happens when a game is all about PvP, it starts big, then dwindles quick. This is even more the case when a game begins with limited, or no PvP, as did Ryzom. We have seen why, that people who are attracted to such activities ruin the game for those who are not, and, once those who would rather not PvP (for whatever reason) got tired of it and left, the gankers, denied victims, left as well. Leaving a small community of people who behaved as people, never enough to support the game.

If things continue as they are, that is the future of Ryzom. This is not opinion, nor conjecture, it is demonstrated fact.

[mrshad]

Soon, non of us will have any choice.
FvF battle zones will cover all of Atys.
You will not be able to heal your guildmates or teammates that are on opposing factions in those zones.

The already stretched lie of consensual PvP will be dropped completely.
It will not be a matter of where you walk that determines if you can be killed or not, it might simply change by whom you can be killed.

The proposed 'solution' form Nevrax is to give us faction flags, so that Kami and Karavan can fight it out, while the neutrals can fight back once attacked, but can not initiate combat.

This is, of course, patently absurd. What is to prevent the gank-kids form attack neutral players? That amount of damage done by a preemptive strike is enough to determine the outcome of a fight. The idea that neutrals can defend but not attack just means that they are marked as easy targets.

There has been some complaints that the game is being dumbed-down by PvP. But even PvP is being dumbed down. Your freedom in the game is being vastly restricted, and right now, most of you don't really care, because it is limited to small zones.

Atys is becoming a place that where you stand determines who you can heal!

We have much *less* freedom to act under PvP that we do without it.

Do you want to show kindness to a fallen homin that has different religious beliefs? Well...you can't.

Do you want to help someone in the Prime Roots that isn't a member of your team or guild? Well...you can't.

Is there any logical reason why you can't help those in need, whenever you would like? NO! Somehow, where you are standing determines whom you can help.

And the response from Nevrax? "These zones are designed for Faction conflict, so of course it makes sense that in these zones, guild and team affiliations don't matter."

Riiiight. Try explaining that in any sort of coherent RP way.

But, my point is bigger than the stupidity of the poorly implemented battle zones.

I want the freedom to heal whom I want, where I want, and when I want!

If a PvPer is really brainless enough to heal the wrong target, or to use an AoE heal spell on allies in hand to hand combat, then the other team deserves the bonus for his idiocy.

Do not cater to the stupid, Nevrax. Let us be free to play our characters how we see them.

[vguerin]

Do not cater to the stupid, Nevrax. Let us be free to play our characters how we see them.

So, we are stupid now for not wanting the game the way that suits you/your character build ? We are stupid for hanging around for PvP and Outposts that have been talked about in interviews with DCC 3 years ago ?

A large number of us are only hanging around thru many bad patches, inbalances and slow responses to see these Outposts implemented. Though they have dumbed down the way that Outposts will be implemented it is and always has been planned/intended for SoR. Not putting them in or delaying them more may be the last straw for a large number of us.

Without Outposts and conflict there is nothing left in the game until they open up the other lands and new/higher skills. We are mostly all working other things just because there is little else to do... I am hardly stupid, but I grow impatient that we still do not have these things IG already...