If you think a mob is overpowered - you are fighting the wrong mob.thebax wrote:I also agree with mrshad. Mobs are simply overpowered, whether they use special attacks or not. This change to healing power will not in any way "improve the gaming experience", such an assertion is foolishness, at best. It will, if we are lucky, make it an annoying grind for those who have reached 100+, and nigh impossible for those who have not, and are in a group of like level.
I restate that if they do insist on this ill-advised move, they not only keep the current code handy, but go to the extra effort of making sure that it can be reinstated very quickly, to keep what population has remained loyal.
[DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
Nonsense.
When a player at level 100 has 2170 max health(under the new rules for jewelry), and does an average of around 200 damage (assuming half are using 1H weapons of damage, and half are using 2H weapons of damage) without weapon stanzas, twice that if they do, and a mob of equal level has around 3000 health and hits for 500 melee, the mob is over-powered. Also remember that the mob need use no stamina nor health to inflict that damage.
Player base= 2170 health, 200 damage
Mob base=3000 health, 500 damage
Special attacks make it more so. I understand we will be given resistances to same with the proposed changes, but it is VERY unlikely they will even come close to the incredible special resistances of most mobs vs. spells, again, an imbalance. Only those drawing upon resources in excess of the skill they are using believe otherwise, such as Mikos's insistance in another thread that he leveled madness solo with little difficulty, but he failed to include in that post, though to his credit admitted it later, that it was necessary to have a much, much higher level in fighting to do so.
When a player at level 100 has 2170 max health(under the new rules for jewelry), and does an average of around 200 damage (assuming half are using 1H weapons of damage, and half are using 2H weapons of damage) without weapon stanzas, twice that if they do, and a mob of equal level has around 3000 health and hits for 500 melee, the mob is over-powered. Also remember that the mob need use no stamina nor health to inflict that damage.
Player base= 2170 health, 200 damage
Mob base=3000 health, 500 damage
Special attacks make it more so. I understand we will be given resistances to same with the proposed changes, but it is VERY unlikely they will even come close to the incredible special resistances of most mobs vs. spells, again, an imbalance. Only those drawing upon resources in excess of the skill they are using believe otherwise, such as Mikos's insistance in another thread that he leveled madness solo with little difficulty, but he failed to include in that post, though to his credit admitted it later, that it was necessary to have a much, much higher level in fighting to do so.
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
add healer to player and mob diesthebax wrote:Player base= 2170 health, 200 damage
Mob base=3000 health, 500 damage
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
They said that mob damages has been already lowered to warrant healing nerf by 2/3.
Mikos, Abyss Eye
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
Healer or not the mob is overpowered.
I am in real life by no means a super heroic figure. If confronted in the woods by an angry Kodiak bear, I will most assuredly be torn to shreds, and will not be able to inlict any but the most superficial injuries to the bear during my rapid demise. However, properly equipped with the products of the human mind, in the form of arms and protection, that same gigantic predator, no matter how large, how resistant to shock (a trait of ursines), how healthy, thick-skinned, or red of tooth and claw, will be brought down by this mere human in a blink of an eye.
An unarmed homin vs. a mob of equal level should lose, unpleasent, but it makes sense. A moderately well equipped homin should be equal, and one that has been lucky enough to obtain, or skilled enough to make, supreme equipment, should dispatch that "equal" mob with very little effort, solo.
For you see, that homin, in the form of their equipment, is NOT solo. He or she is inherently already teamed, as they are using the power of three homins at the same time. The one who gathered the materials for their equipment, the one that crafted the gear, and themselves. So even if the numbers are insufficient to demonstrate that the mob is over-powered (although I do not understand how that could be), consider this: When a player is defeated by a mob of nearly equal level, whether in the capacity of fighter or mage, that mob has not overcome one homin, but THREE AT ONCE. This should be ample evidence.
I am in real life by no means a super heroic figure. If confronted in the woods by an angry Kodiak bear, I will most assuredly be torn to shreds, and will not be able to inlict any but the most superficial injuries to the bear during my rapid demise. However, properly equipped with the products of the human mind, in the form of arms and protection, that same gigantic predator, no matter how large, how resistant to shock (a trait of ursines), how healthy, thick-skinned, or red of tooth and claw, will be brought down by this mere human in a blink of an eye.
An unarmed homin vs. a mob of equal level should lose, unpleasent, but it makes sense. A moderately well equipped homin should be equal, and one that has been lucky enough to obtain, or skilled enough to make, supreme equipment, should dispatch that "equal" mob with very little effort, solo.
For you see, that homin, in the form of their equipment, is NOT solo. He or she is inherently already teamed, as they are using the power of three homins at the same time. The one who gathered the materials for their equipment, the one that crafted the gear, and themselves. So even if the numbers are insufficient to demonstrate that the mob is over-powered (although I do not understand how that could be), consider this: When a player is defeated by a mob of nearly equal level, whether in the capacity of fighter or mage, that mob has not overcome one homin, but THREE AT ONCE. This should be ample evidence.
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
I dont understand how you can generalise that mobs are overpowered? Ever heard of picking your target? There are many mobs my own melee that i can kill solo, and conversely many that will easily kill me. As we seem to be talking about mobs and not the healer 'nerf' the proposed changes will make it *easier* to solo, ie homins will be able to sustain mob attacks better than before.thebax wrote:Healer or not the mob is overpowered.
I am in real life by no means a super heroic figure. If confronted in the woods by an angry Kodiak bear, I will most assuredly be torn to shreds, and will not be able to inlict any but the most superficial injuries to the bear during my rapid demise. However, properly equipped with the products of the human mind, in the form of arms and protection, that same gigantic predator, no matter how large, how resistant to shock (a trait of ursines), how healthy, thick-skinned, or red of tooth and claw, will be brought down by this mere human in a blink of an eye.
An unarmed homin vs. a mob of equal level should lose, unpleasent, but it makes sense. A moderately well equipped homin should be equal, and one that has been lucky enough to obtain, or skilled enough to make, supreme equipment, should dispatch that "equal" mob with very little effort, solo.
For you see, that homin, in the form of their equipment, is NOT solo. He or she is inherently already teamed, as they are using the power of three homins at the same time. The one who gathered the materials for their equipment, the one that crafted the gear, and themselves. So even if the numbers are insufficient to demonstrate that the mob is over-powered (although I do not understand how that could be), consider this: When a player is defeated by a mob of nearly equal level, whether in the capacity of fighter or mage, that mob has not overcome one homin, but THREE AT ONCE. This should be ample evidence.
Also your arugument about a player counting as 3 when equipped makes no sense. mobs have equipment as well in the form of hard shells, pointy teeth and bad breath!
rushin ~ asleep
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
thebax wrote:Healer or not the mob is overpowered.
I am in real life by no means a super heroic figure. If confronted in the woods by an angry Kodiak bear, I will most assuredly be torn to shreds, and will not be able to inlict any but the most superficial injuries to the bear during my rapid demise. However, properly equipped with the products of the human mind, in the form of arms and protection, that same gigantic predator, no matter how large, how resistant to shock (a trait of ursines), how healthy, thick-skinned, or red of tooth and claw, will be brought down by this mere human in a blink of an eye.
An unarmed homin vs. a mob of equal level should lose, unpleasent, but it makes sense. A moderately well equipped homin should be equal, and one that has been lucky enough to obtain, or skilled enough to make, supreme equipment, should dispatch that "equal" mob with very little effort, solo.
For you see, that homin, in the form of their equipment, is NOT solo. He or she is inherently already teamed, as they are using the power of three homins at the same time. The one who gathered the materials for their equipment, the one that crafted the gear, and themselves. So even if the numbers are insufficient to demonstrate that the mob is over-powered (although I do not understand how that could be), consider this: When a player is defeated by a mob of nearly equal level, whether in the capacity of fighter or mage, that mob has not overcome one homin, but THREE AT ONCE. This should be ample evidence.
Mobs cover a range of player levels. A mob encountered while you are the lower end of this range is a challange, put another way overpowered. Your reward for killing this mob is 3k XP. You can pass through a number of player levels and the challange is less each time, but the XP 3k is constant. Then as you become more equal to the mob (or greater) the reward is reduced falling slowly as you gain levels. Eventually the mob is lower than you and gives you no reward. (This is the game play mechanic).
As far as I know a level 100 mob is just that a level 100 mob, the mobs level is not an indicator that it should be equally to a level 100 player.
There are a number of lvl 100 mobs that vary in strength, some are powerful lvl 100 mobs and others are weak lvl 100 mobs. There is differences in mob types too, a carnivour is more agressive, but has less HP to compensate.
A classic example of this is Stinga vs Shooki - I went out hunt both of these plants (Parched by name) lvl 114 I think, mabe slightly lower. The stinga is higher on HPs than the Shooki, but its attack rate is much slower.
Shooki - you need to hit hard and fast to defeat.
Stinga - you can take longer over.
They are the same lvl, but are very different mobs, neither of which is overpowered in their own right just require different tactics to defeat, solo or teamed.
Sighting just HP and Dmg for comparison is not enough to declare mobs over powered. All the factors have to be considered. Kinchers are extremely powerful and kipstas are extremely weak (with regard to HP) both can kill the unwary player. Even when the player is well over the level of these mobs I will treat them with care, I can kill a kipsta before it reaches me, but onces its on me the fight is more side towards it.
In general the mob balance (over all mob types or all levels) the balance seems fair, bias towards the mobs to allow for the imbalance of AI vs the human mind. You have the opportunity to be stratigic, they don't. If homin and mob was equal in attibutes, the mob would lose everytime.
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
The balancing seems aimed towards the higher levels, say 50 and above.
Some thought should be given to those starting on the islands, it can be tough out there especially with so few players.
Maybe the halving of healing should be tailed-off so that at level 5 it is the same as now, but becomes half by level 50 (or lower). This would help those on the Islands to survive and progress.
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Jinkin
Some thought should be given to those starting on the islands, it can be tough out there especially with so few players.
Maybe the halving of healing should be tailed-off so that at level 5 it is the same as now, but becomes half by level 50 (or lower). This would help those on the Islands to survive and progress.
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Jinkin
Last edited by kgrieve on Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Expanded on explanation
Reason: Expanded on explanation
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
The argument that we should add a healer to beat a mob at the same level, or that certain mobs types of the same level are easier than other really underscores that point that the game is out of balance.
Let's review.
Balance: The state of having the risk equal to the reward.
or, alternatively: Having the payout be worth the effort.
Currently in SoR, there is very little phat lewt. We can argue the pros and cons of that setup in another place. Generally speaking, however, that means there are only two possible rewards: XP and mats.
Mats, by themselves, are not worth much. Typically they are considered secondary to the team goals. When we go fighting mobs, it isn't the mats we are after, it is the XP. I think we can safety leave mats out of the balance equation for now.
The bottom line, a homin, alone and reasonably equipped, should be able to fight a mob of equal level and have a good chance of winning. The reward should be worth the time and risk it required, I figure it somewhere in the 2000-2700 range. Sadly, with the artificial XP cap, it is difficult to assess relative value, but, if you add in the almost negligible value of the mats, you might come up with something close to balance.
That is, until you take into account the time to regenerate the energy spent on the kill. But, lets put that aside for the time being.
My more immediate point is that reasonably equipped homin can solo some mobs and not others. Plants are a favorite for the solo hunter, while aggressive kitin and carnivores are not. This, dear reader, means the game is not in balance. The plants are, most likely, too weak, while the aggressive mobs are too strong. Many of the herbivores are just about right in terms of attack power and HP, but the payout (XP and mats) is way too low.
Now that the baseline for balance is set, we can consider what happens in a team. The idea behind teaming, of course, is to either be able to take larger monsters than you can solo, or to be able to take the same monsters faster. Either way, for balance to be maintained, the reward must decrees relative to the new decrees in risk (after all, it is far less risky to hunt with a buddy looking out for you.)
So, what happens when we nerf the healing skill? Well, hopefully, as with any nerf, a developers heart is ripped out and burned as an offering to the gods of foresight; both as a plea to bless the designers with a greater ability to think things through, and as a ward against future nerfs. Once the dev team has paid the price for their lack of judgment, we can review the results. If healing is nerfed, we effectively increase the risk, and with no increase in reward, the game becomes unbalanced. Now, some of you say that healing is already too powerful, thus reducing the risk; but I would point out again that healing was increased to balance out the increased damage of some mobs. It has been postulated that those mobs have had the damage output adjusted down, but if they have, I would really like to know when, which mobs and by how much.
Also, I think PvP zones should be turned off
Let's review.
Balance: The state of having the risk equal to the reward.
or, alternatively: Having the payout be worth the effort.
Currently in SoR, there is very little phat lewt. We can argue the pros and cons of that setup in another place. Generally speaking, however, that means there are only two possible rewards: XP and mats.
Mats, by themselves, are not worth much. Typically they are considered secondary to the team goals. When we go fighting mobs, it isn't the mats we are after, it is the XP. I think we can safety leave mats out of the balance equation for now.
The bottom line, a homin, alone and reasonably equipped, should be able to fight a mob of equal level and have a good chance of winning. The reward should be worth the time and risk it required, I figure it somewhere in the 2000-2700 range. Sadly, with the artificial XP cap, it is difficult to assess relative value, but, if you add in the almost negligible value of the mats, you might come up with something close to balance.
That is, until you take into account the time to regenerate the energy spent on the kill. But, lets put that aside for the time being.
My more immediate point is that reasonably equipped homin can solo some mobs and not others. Plants are a favorite for the solo hunter, while aggressive kitin and carnivores are not. This, dear reader, means the game is not in balance. The plants are, most likely, too weak, while the aggressive mobs are too strong. Many of the herbivores are just about right in terms of attack power and HP, but the payout (XP and mats) is way too low.
Now that the baseline for balance is set, we can consider what happens in a team. The idea behind teaming, of course, is to either be able to take larger monsters than you can solo, or to be able to take the same monsters faster. Either way, for balance to be maintained, the reward must decrees relative to the new decrees in risk (after all, it is far less risky to hunt with a buddy looking out for you.)
So, what happens when we nerf the healing skill? Well, hopefully, as with any nerf, a developers heart is ripped out and burned as an offering to the gods of foresight; both as a plea to bless the designers with a greater ability to think things through, and as a ward against future nerfs. Once the dev team has paid the price for their lack of judgment, we can review the results. If healing is nerfed, we effectively increase the risk, and with no increase in reward, the game becomes unbalanced. Now, some of you say that healing is already too powerful, thus reducing the risk; but I would point out again that healing was increased to balance out the increased damage of some mobs. It has been postulated that those mobs have had the damage output adjusted down, but if they have, I would really like to know when, which mobs and by how much.
Also, I think PvP zones should be turned off
Re: [DEV] Rebalancing changes - Proposition
It is quite easy to solo a mob at same level, homin with good equipment has more than 50% chance of survival. Balance would mean that chance is 50/50 when fighting same level mob.
Mikos, Abyss Eye