Role Play Conference

[madnak]

Lets look at the Karavan and how they operate. First and foremost they are very strict about their rules and ideals. This is demonstrated by the fact that children are not taught to read and write. It's also demonstrated by the fact that Karavan followers are not allowed to study history. Even more to the point questioning anything relating to Jena or the Karavan is strictly forbidden.

Will you please support this? From reading the Flanagan Files I don't get this impression. I've read most of the lore on this site and I just don't see anything to support this. It sounds like you're combining a very particular interpretation of the Karavan with some of the ideals of the Matis and some of the laws of Jinovitch. If the Karavan were as you say, I couldn't see them allying with the Trykers of all people.

[eohlwyn]

Will you please support this? ......... If the Karavan were as you say, I couldn't see them allying with the Trykers of all people.

This sort of debate over cannon is EXACTLY what I am referring to in my comment. The thing that people don't tend to get is that there doesn't have to be ONE interpretation of any cannon so long as all the roleplayers are reasonably accepting of everyone's ideas for what they are.

The key to creating a condusive positive and flourishing roleplay atmosphere and arena typically has nothing to do with the specs of what is right or not in a given world, but instead, what is right or not in the ooc community as far as how things are gone about, and what kind of ooc respect is given to each character, player, battle, etc.

[raynes]

Will you please support this? From reading the Flanagan Files I don't get this impression. I've read most of the lore on this site and I just don't see anything to support this. It sounds like you're combining a very particular interpretation of the Karavan with some of the ideals of the Matis and some of the laws of Jinovitch. If the Karavan were as you say, I couldn't see them allying with the Trykers of all people.

Children are not taught to read and write:
" "Is it true that the Matis keep their lower castes from learning to read and write to more easily bend their minds to your laws?" popped Julea.

"It is the Law of Jena, but the answer is yes, one must first acquire the necessary training to affront the doubts of this world. Needless knowledge is a danger to the simple homin only leading to torment and misery and finally to perdition amidst the jaws of the dragon," replied Angeli. "
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_story_short6

It is against Jena's law to be curious of the past
"Homin curiosity about the past. This leads many homins to doubt the pillars of the Karavan and was the reason behind major disasters, such as the fire of Coriolis and the war against the kitins."
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_higher_karavan_flanagan

[madnak]

That's Matis, not Karavan. The Matis and the Karavan are very different. While Matis doctrine claims the king speaks for Jena, it isn't true. It's the Matis aristocracy that you're talking about there. And they do teach children when they're "ready for it," (or born to the right parents).

As for curiosity about the past, that's not learning simple history (the historian Pergio Vasti who told of the siege of Karavia would be alarmed to learn that was the case). That's digging into things like who is Elias Tryton? Where did the Kami come from? Where were homins before they were on Atys? And I have a suspicion that some rites will eventually teach that knowledge. Here it's not an opposition to knowledge, but a desire to keep it out of common hands. Obviously the Karavan are opposed to alternative philosophies, which is understandable. That is still not a sure indictment of anyone who happens to have such a philosophy. The bible says that "thou shalt not steal," but that doesn't mean followers of Western religion hate thieves or kill them on sight. Only that they're doing something against that morality.

The Karavan also have relatively few rules. Don't go to the roots, don't pry into the past, don't worship anyone other than Jena, don't do missions for the Kami. That's about it.

They've allied with nondogmatic Trykers, and the very liberal King Yrkanis. I don't think the Karavan care whether their strictures are followed strictly and to the letter, and while some Karavan followers (Jinovitch, Aniro) believe that Karavan law should be enforced violently, many (Yrkanis, Matini Roqvini, Still Wyler, Yasson, Rigan Mac'Darell) clearly do not. Also plenty of the Karavan tribes don't follow all the rules. And even the matis who are so stuck-up and judgmental have officially allied with several Kami tribes.

I can see how you might possibly interpret the Karavan that way, Raynes, but I really don't think the lore supports your view.

[madnak]

This sort of debate over cannon is EXACTLY what I am referring to in my comment. The thing that people don't tend to get is that there doesn't have to be ONE interpretation of any cannon so long as all the roleplayers are reasonably accepting of everyone's ideas for what they are.

I agree, but sometimes there has to be some common ground. Otherwise large-scale RP becomes impossible, because everyone has a different view of the "objective reality" of the game. We have to fill in that kind of thing because many details aren't provided by the lore, but if critical details contradict themselves from player to player, that can make it very hard to manage the situation.

That said, I do think "bending" here and there is a good (or even necessary) idea. For this particular scene we'll assume that redhot sap is a typical condiment, but maybe in another scene it's a drug or a medical salve or something else. On the other hand, if Raynes believes that the Karavan can't read and tries to use that to his advantage in a conflict, whereas I believe Karavan can read and so I ruin his attempt, that could be important and breed real hostility. I think things could unravel if we don't have some kind of OOC understanding regarding certain metagame elements. Especially where PvP is concerned, since the conflict isn't totally consensual.

[sidusar]

They've allied with nondogmatic Trykers, and the very liberal King Yrkanis. I don't think the Karavan care whether their strictures are followed strictly and to the letter, and while some Karavan followers (Jinovitch, Aniro) believe that Karavan law should be enforced violently, many (Yrkanis, Matini Roqvini, Still Wyler, Yasson, Rigan Mac'Darell) clearly do not. Also plenty of the Karavan tribes don't follow all the rules. And even the matis who are so stuck-up and judgmental have officially allied with several Kami tribes.

I agree with this, and to provide some more lore to back it up; the Karavan have forbidden the Guild of Elias. But how do both of the Karavan-friendly governments react to this?
"The Yrkanis government, following Karavan Law, has banished the guild though in reality they turn a blind eye to be able to glean information to keep in control of the phenomenon."
"The Fairhaven government, following Karavan Law, has banished the guild for peace' sake though in reality they turn a blind eye to be able to leave the door ajar just in case Elias really is the Holy Father!"
While their official statements are that the Guild is forbidden, in reality they tolerate it. And the Karavan don't seem to have too much of a problem with this, since they haven't rejected the governments yet. So it's quite possible for Karavan followers to have the same attitude about the Kami and their followers, officially rejecting though in reality tolerating them.

[raynes]

That's Matis, not Karavan. The Matis and the Karavan are very different. While Matis doctrine claims the king speaks for Jena, it isn't true. It's the Matis aristocracy that you're talking about there. And they do teach children when they're "ready for it," (or born to the right parents).

As for curiosity about the past, that's not learning simple history (the historian Pergio Vasti who told of the siege of Karavia would be alarmed to learn that was the case). That's digging into things like who is Elias Tryton? Where did the Kami come from? Where were homins before they were on Atys? And I have a suspicion that some rites will eventually teach that knowledge. Here it's not an opposition to knowledge, but a desire to keep it out of common hands. Obviously the Karavan are opposed to alternative philosophies, which is understandable. That is still not a sure indictment of anyone who happens to have such a philosophy. The bible says that "thou shalt not steal," but that doesn't mean followers of Western religion hate thieves or kill them on sight. Only that they're doing something against that morality.

The Karavan also have relatively few rules. Don't go to the roots, don't pry into the past, don't worship anyone other than Jena, don't do missions for the Kami. That's about it.

They've allied with nondogmatic Trykers, and the very liberal King Yrkanis. I don't think the Karavan care whether their strictures are followed strictly and to the letter, and while some Karavan followers (Jinovitch, Aniro) believe that Karavan law should be enforced violently, many (Yrkanis, Matini Roqvini, Still Wyler, Yasson, Rigan Mac'Darell) clearly do not. Also plenty of the Karavan tribes don't follow all the rules. And even the matis who are so stuck-up and judgmental have officially allied with several Kami tribes.

I can see how you might possibly interpret the Karavan that way, Raynes, but I really don't think the lore supports your view.

Which Kami tribes have the Matis officially alligned themselves with? Just because there are Kami tribes in Matis lands does not meant they are alligned with the Matis. Please list who you are reffering to.


Now, gow can you say what I post is Matis and not Karavan. The comment about the past was directly from the flannigan files. The other is a law of Jena. The laws of Jena which are Karavan made laws.

Showing you even more to support my statement:
Tryker Prohibitions:
- Never breach the Law of Jena.
http://www.ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_tryker_being

If you read all of the sort stories and other lore that involves the Karavan and Karavan alligned races there is one theme that pops out, The urgent need to strictly follow the laws of Jena. It is what both the Tryker and Matis include as a central part of their belief systems. This includes things like questioning history, learning to read and write when one is young, approaching a Kami, doing missions or tasks for the Kami.

Also you can tell the Karavan are very structured and strict about their religion by the words used in the things written about them. Words like laws, worship, and infidel. None of these types of words are found when speaking about the Kami. The language used to talk about the Karavan is always a very harsh. Nothing written about the Kami has that same feel to it. Look at the titles of the two last paragraphs in high power sections on the front page:

The Mara Fragments: Legend
The Flanagan Files: The Prophecy

The Mara Fragments: What they can provide for homins
The Flanagan Files: What they promise their loyal friends

Learning about the lore is not a matter of reading sentences and learning what they say. It's a matter of reading things written about them and observing they style they are written with. It's about learning the overall tone of what is being said. With the Karavan the tone is one of following strict rules, never going against Jena, the need to consantly strive to please Jena and the Karavan.

If you still feel I am wrong, please explain to me the overall tone you get when reading about the Karavan.

[thanakar]

Raynes, how many different interpretations are there of The Bible? How many different religions have arisen over that one book. Lore is like that, what you get from it won't be the same as the person next to you. Plain and simple.

[oldmess]

When you follow the Kami, there are no rules or laws. There are guildlines, but no hard rules. The Karavan there is. As a Karavan you are expected to follow the laws of Jena. As a Kami supporter you are asked to take care of the planet.

When I go back and re-read the general descriptions of the Matis vs. the Tryker, I can see more of what you are saying in the Matis description. But even though the Tryker venerates Jena, their feelings toward the Karavan seems to have a small rebellious streak.

http://ryzom.com/index.php?page=lore_races_tryker_being

Oh, and by the way, keep it under your bonnet but some say that Elias is none other than the husband of Jena, which makes him the holy Father, but don't mention it to the Karavan!

And, when I look at the section listed What we value most?, I see this:

To be a true Tryker, you gotta live by the virtues of freedom, equality and sharing :
- Freedom : Consider all homins responsible and free of their acts. Any homin violating the freedom of another will be in breach of the Homin Rights Act, which as it happens, was first drawn up by the Tryker Council.
- Equality : Every homin has an equal right to walk the land, to obtain instruction, to harvest the natural resources, to choose their own destiny, as long as they don't encroach on other homin rights.
- Sharing : We believe that our force lies in our solidarity and that solidarity is borne from sharing. If we could persuade all Jena's children to be like us Trykers the world would be a safer place!

Freedom, equality and sharing. Not exactly the words of someone that will exclude another for his/her beliefs. It doesn't say "every Jena worshipper", it says "every homin". True, there's a hint of evangalizing in the last sentence, but that seems more inclusionary than not.

While others may wish to roleplay their characters differently than mine (and I respect that), those three words are the key to how I wish to roleplay mine. They are at the heart of why I chose that race to begin with.

[madnak]

Which Kami tribes have the Matis officially alligned themselves with? Just because there are Kami tribes in Matis lands does not meant they are alligned with the Matis. Please list who you are reffering to.

From http://ryzom.com/?page=lore_races_matis_being: The Frahar Hunters, the Icon Worshipers, and the Hamazans of the Dead Seed are Matis allies.

Now, gow can you say what I post is Matis and not Karavan. The comment about the past was directly from the flannigan files. The other is a law of Jena. The laws of Jena which are Karavan made laws.

The question is how the law is enforced. I haven't seen anything to imply that Karavan followers can't befriend those who break the law. Also the fact that the Matis claim it's a universal Karavan law doesn't make it so. It seems likely to me that the Matis use Jena as a tool to keep their class heirarchy stable.

As for the rest, I get the tone of a strict morality that isn't strictly enforced. It also isn't strictly defined anywhere, the Flanagan Files aren't extensive. The Matis seem very willing to slaughter the "infidels," but the Tryker seem less so. And Yrkanis and Yasson strike me as very tolerant. Also certain stories paint the Karavan in a different light - http://ryzom.com/?page=lore_story_short9.

I can respect your interpretation, it's an intepretation many Kami followers share in game I'm sure, but I believe I've justified my own interpretation (on which my character is based).