ranged needs to be fixed.

[xenofur]

Take a melee lvl it up to 150, then take an elem mage lvl it up to 150.

compare their abilities, downtimes and the amount of money spend.

Is melee broken as well?

ah yes, because an apple is smaller than a melon, it has to be the same size as a cherry, since the cherry is also smaller than a melon
tell me, how can you even compare 5 minutes downtime for a mage when his sap is empty with 60 minutes downtime for a range fighter when his ammo is empty?

[lariva]

In that case I think magery is broken - lvl 150 melee vs lvl 150 magery - melee will win 99% of the time. In a prolonged fight melee with ALWAY win

ah yes, because an apple is smaller than a melon, it has to be the same size as a cherry, since the cherry is also smaller than a melon
tell me, how can you even compare 5 minutes downtime for a mage when his sap is empty with 60 minutes downtime for a range fighter when his ammo is empty?

[xenofur]

oh great, now we're comparing pvp and pve. alright, i'll cut the crap and offer a challenge for you: make a new character, any deck-out you wish and level range fight to 50, post a screenshot of your skill trees and tell us wether you think anyone could have fun with that. then i'll concede that range is not broken.

[cerest]

As long as this thread stays on topic and discusses ranged fighting I'll allow it to stay open. I will not allow it to get as out of hand as the thread on the ATS, there's no need for that.

[aylwyne]

In any skill, there needs to be some balance between the cost it takes to level that skill (time, dapper, frustration, etc.) and the payoff you get from having that skill (combat effectiveness, fame, etc.).

It doesn't seem like range really has this. From the little I've done with ranged combat, it seems like the hardest thing to level. At the same time, in a group combat situation, it doesn't seem highly valuable. I mean, I'd probably choose to swap a ranged fighter with an elemental mage of the same level if I was putting together an optimal group.

One approach to addressing this issue would be to lower the cost of getting the skill to be more inline with the payoff (less mats, bigger clips, etc.). However, I'd much rather see them make the skill more valuable so that it's worth the high cost to get.

I don't have all the answers as to how to do this but others will probably have good ideas and I'm sure the game designers could come up with something. I'm thinking along the lines of special skills and abilities that a ranged fighter would have that would make them an invaluable part of a combat group. It probably shouldn't be something as simple as giving them really high damage output. That might imbalance things a bit too much.

Maybe they could have a "warning shot" skill that would not inflict damage but would cause a mob whose level was below the skill level to flee a certain distance. That could make ranged combat an ideal escort for a group that's trying to travel.

Or what about the ability to use cover. This could give the fighter a chance of not being detected on the first couple of shots, allowing them to "soften up" the mob.

These are just a couple of ideas to show the kind of thing I'm thinking. I'd much rather see incentive to pay the cost of getting the skill rather than creating a cheap yet not-very-useful skill.

Edit: fixed a typo

[reynjl0]

Maybe I am new to this discussion and am simply unaware that this has been discussed before. But the single largest problem facing ranged in my opinion is not the fact of time, money, or mat expenditures to make ammo... in fact I find that part almost bearable. The problem I see it that guns have a big fat +0 for damage and ammo has a +0 for speed and a +0 for range. Maybe Im delusional but when I craft a gun and see the crafting bar fill up with 99% damage I expect an end result that is not a +0.

As it stands all the damage comes from ammo, and all the speed and range comes from the gun. This essentially halves the effectiveness of ranged combat. If they didnt intend to place additional damage on the gun and additional speed and ranged on the ammo, what the heck are those qualities doing on the craft sheet.

For those of you who accuse Tetra and myself of whining, it is simply because you do not use ranged yourself and thus do not care. Are you getting tired of hearing its broken, sure, I am too. But we must continue to point out exactly what is broken in a constructive manner if we ever hope to see this resolved. If melee became suddenly did half the damage it does now, you would find players walking out and an unholy war ensue. But with ranged as broken as it is, people have just come to accept it and have become complacent with its craptitude. I personally hope it is fixed so that threads like this will no longer be needed.

/Rant off.

[mrshad]

I personally hope it is fixed so that threads like this will no longer be needed.

Threads like this *are* no longer needed.
We all know ranged combat is unbalanced. Tetra has told us 100...maybe 200 thousand times.

I don't know what he hopes to gian by creating yet another thread on the same topic, when it really adds no new information to a problem EVERYONE KNOWS is there.

Tetra, why didn't you just bump one of your old posts?

[tetra]

Threads like this *are* no longer needed.
Tetra, why didn't you just bump one of your old posts?

Because I like to piss people off by making them say "gee why is there thread umpteen million and one about ranged when the first umpteen million threads about ranged, including all of the ones all through beta, were completely ignored by nevrax."

[josephm]

Look, even if it's fixed with the things you want Tetra, it's going to be downright boring. Yes it's a problem but one that can be avoided by choice so there really is no need to fix it. Take it from a business stand point.

1. People can have fun other ways
2. The other ways people have fun are still lacking in overall content
3. no one has left because of ranged, at least not that we've seen.
4. Skills that everyone uses, like foraging still have bugs and need to be fixed.
5. We can fix this later and not loose a large chunk of our consumers..if any.

All that aside, I still think ranged would be 'boring' with limited stanzas. I'd like to see the options open up a little like magic where things are drastically different. That, or melee, different edges to specialization. I still think melee needs some stanzas.

There was a post a while back where a gm took initiative to try and get us to post new melee stanzas. This was in lieu of ranged being broken. Maybe the gm was just having fun, maybe Nevrax takes higher priority with melee. It certain looks one way. Can't really say either but I had fun doing it.

[foreverb]

Look, even if it's fixed with the things you want Tetra, it's going to be downright boring. Yes it's a problem but one that can be avoided by choice so there really is no need to fix it. Take it from a business stand point.

1. People can have fun other ways.

You may enjoy stairing at the wall but i'd rather be useful to a group using ranged weapons.

2. The other ways people have fun are still lacking in overall content.

So we should obviously ignore the problems you dont happen to think are important to work on the things you do think are important?

3. no one has left because of ranged, at least not that we've seen.

I actualy new one person that left because of ranged. But thats not important.

4. Skills that everyone uses, like foraging still have bugs and need to be fixed.

And I feel that when an entire line is worthlessly broken that it should be fixed before minor problems in fully functional lines are even looked at.

5. We can fix this later and not loose a large chunk of our consumers..if any.

... and you will loose more by not fixing small bugs here and there? If they were to fix ranged alot of folks would probably say,"Wow!, maybe Nevrax can do more then sit on thier collective thumbs while creating more problems then they fix!!!" Ofcorse it wouldnt be something that everyone is intrested in but it would still have an impact.

All that aside, I still think ranged would be 'boring' with limited stanzas. I'd like to see the options open up a little like magic where things are drastically different. That, or melee, different edges to specialization. I still think melee needs some stanzas.

There was a post a while back where a gm took initiative to try and get us to post new melee stanzas. This was in lieu of ranged being broken. Maybe the gm was just having fun, maybe Nevrax takes higher priority with melee. It certain looks one way. Can't really say either but I had fun doing it.

For Launchers i'd love to see this.

Smashing ammo:A short stun and small AE on this type of ammo.

Slashing ammo:These should have a large AE.

Piercing ammo:These should Ignore armor and have no AE.

Just a sugestion.